Bench-Talk

I have a 300 savage remington classic and wanting to chamber it for a 30HBR round that could also be used from the magazine. I was wondering about the 300ihmsa round. Would it feed from the magazine. I am planning to use 125grain to 150 grain bullets in an shilen 1 in 15 twist.I am also going to use this rifle during deer season also.the max range for hunting will be around 200 to 250 yards. Any ifo is greatly accepted as this is my first build for a duel purpose rifle.

 Not a lot of penetration there.

I have an old, wood stocked Hunter Class rifle chambered for a tight necked 30x47 HBR that is converted into a deer rifle. I did this to have an accurate deer rifle and to be able to use the piles of second hand match brass laying around. This rifle is argueably, one of my most accurate rifles. I shot the biggest deer I have ever had a chance to kill with it and bounced the 150 grainer off the shoulder blade. He got away due to not giving him another one. Shooter error: not giving him the second shot and not having enough velocity. The 30 BR is not a round for the heavier bullets and is perfect for punching accurate holes in paper.

My last two deer were snuffed out by the 45-70 from a Marlin 1895; instant death and destruction.  

"I have a 300 savage remington classic and wanting to chamber it for a 30HBR round that could also be used from the magazine. I was wondering about the 300ihmsa round. Would it feed from the magazine. I am planning to use 125grain to 150 grain bullets in an shilen 1 in 15 twist.I am also going to use this rifle during deer season also.the max range for hunting will be around 200 to 250 yards. Any ifo is greatly accepted as this is my first build for a duel purpose rifle." Jason Rogers

Have you checked with your gunsmith, regarding his reamer selection? Or, are you going to purchase your own reamer? Yes, thorugh a Rem. 700 action, any of the various 30x47 iterations will feed nicely. The IHMSA cartridges have either a 35 or, 38 Degree shoulder - the old  .300 Savage is 30 Deg. In order to preserve powder capacity and insure maximum precision, I would have the .300Sav. chamber "throated" to keep the bullet-base (of the longest/heaviest bullet you intend to use) just above the neck/shoulder junction.

Using old 30x47HBR barrels, and my own FB bullets, weighing between 134 and 144 grains, I have killed numerous mule-deer and pronghorn at ranges from about 74 yards, to 350 Yd. - all dropped either instantly, or having taken but a single bound following complete pass-throughs. Respectively, these were fired at MVs of 2900 and 2850 FPS - I never recovered a bullet; exit-holes ran uniformly about golf-ball sized and included several quartering away shots, which entered the rib-cage and exited through the off-side shoulder - about what one could expect from the same bullets launched via a 30/06 or .308.

Assuming that your smith owns a 30 IHMSA reamer, this would be a good choice, as would a plane-jane .300 Savage or, any other wild-cat of full length proportion, based upon the .300 Sav. case. The .300 Sav. would elininate the need for custom dies, and , with handloads, will duplicate the performance of the various 30x47 wild-cats.  Assuming that you either have, or, can obtain dies, forming the IHMSA cases requires only a psss through the FL die. For bolt-actioned rifles,  published 300 Sav. data is grossly anemic - you can very nearly duplicate .308 Win performance. The .300 Savage was the original "short magnim' ! ;)  Good shootin' ! RG

1st i was looking at the ballistics for this using a 14 inch barrrel and they ( Hodgdon) were getting 150 grain bullets to 2300 and 125 grain to 2360. Also I am one who like to do things a little different. I am going to have shilen put the barrel on. I like the idea of a small thirty but really want it to feed from the mag. That is why I decided to go the IHMSA round as opposed to the 30BR. Thanks for your help.

I thought the rem. "CLASSIC" is/was a rifle, thus, a 14" long barrel would not be legal . . . did I miss something? From an 18" barrel, firing 150 Gr. bullets, you can reasonably expect 2700 FPS+ via either a  .300 Sav. or the IHMSA version. Good luck.

Looking back, I'm amazed that such punny rounds will still induce permanent sleep - for the last many years, I've reverted to being a velocity freak! ;)  None the less, as Todd Nyhus proved last fall, even the lowly .308 can still kill the hapless buck . . . RG

You are correct i was just stating Hodgdon powders stated velocity for it in a pistol. I was just saying that if they got that from a 14" barrel than out of a 22" this little thing is really going to push the 125 to 150 grain bullets.

Just curious is there any real benifit to a radius shoulder. We were talking about hunting last night and a guy at work shoots a 270 Weatherby and says that it is the cats meow. I looked at my 270WSM and really can't tell the difference that barrel length would not change. His barrel is 26" inch mine is 24".

When we were looking to make a rifle for HBR, we compared the chamber dimensions ie. reamers that were out there and being used in the HBR classes.  Also secondly we look to make our cartridges from Lapua brass.  The .30x44 made from the .300 Savage is so close to the minimum for Hunter capacity, that those that shoot it need to use thin Winchester brass.  I would rather have a chamber large enough or past the minimum size enough that the thicker and more consistant Lapua Brass is still on the legal side of the Volume rule.  Which is why we chose the Reamer designed and used by Mike Swartz and the numbers allow you to use the Lapua .308 Brass as a start point.  Now I should mention that since then, Lapua brought out the 6.5x47 Lapua and if you start with that brass you end up with brass that is considerably shorter than your chamber.  For that reason we stick to the .308 Brass for a start point.  However, I am sure someone has taken a good look at that and designed a reamer to be used with Lapua 6.5x47 Lapua brass right from the start, you'll also have a small primer.  The end result after necking it up to .30 cal might be something like .30 x 45 3/4mm  or something close to that, but still within the legal volume limits.  With the Mike Swartz reamer you get a .330 neck too which is good for making brass because our .30 BR is .330 nk so no adjustments are needed for our turning tools.

Best wishes.

 Paul

 Paul:  As I understand the Hunter rules, one must use a case "equal to a 30-30" in volume.Common usage sets this at 45 grains of water, filled to the top of the neck (just under overflowing).  I have some Federal 300 Savage brass and just checked three fired cases at random.  They averaged 52 grains of water.  I have been competing for several years using a round my gunsmith calls the "30 doggie".  It is nothing more or less than a .0.2" short .308, with a 0.332" neck.  I form brass from Remington BR brass with the small primer pocket.  It holds 47 grains of water, if I recall correctly.  I use cut-off .308 dies to form the brass in one operation and to FL (Redding S) or neck (Wilson) size it as required.  I trim to length and then turn the necks in one pass.  I have a good supply of this brass, but am planning to try some Lapua .308 brass for next season.

What bullets and powder do you like in your Hunter cartridges?  Thanks, Ed 

Yea Tom, the old 300 sav, 308 class cartridges may be a little light for some hunters. That 338 you have in the gun cabinet might be more reliable for the big tough ones.

 Actually, I just recently loaded up a pocketful of 30x47 HBR for the deer rifle using 150 grain Nosler Partition bullets. They aren't quite as accurate as the hand built hollowpoints but good enough for freezer meat.

The old 338 is gathering cobwebs right now but it also has a box of Partitons loaded and ready if called into service.  

     I used some of my extra match bullets in my 30-06 for Whitetail deer hunting at times, mostly my 140HP, since they were very accurate in that rifle. I was very careful with shot placement as I believed that the thinner match jacket would make a frangible bullet. The post-mortems indicated that was true as I could never find any sizeable piece of bullet. However a heart or lung shot on three decent bucks dropped them in their tracks as if they were electrocuted. I would be leary of trying to break bone though. I also have a 30x47 deer rifle, but I haven't shot a deer with it yet, but the chronograph tells me that it is and equal to the old 30-06 and with the PROPER bullet and DECENT bullet placement it is capable of downing most Whitetails.

In my experience, the terminal performance of  [J4] jacketed bullets is more affected by core alloy than by the jackets. My bullets have always featured somewhat harder cores than most BR bullet makers use: including .243, .257 and .308 calibers, BIB BR bullets have performed not only predictably, but extremely well on deer - almost as admirably as in competition. By extremely well, I mean complete pass-thoughs AND either instant or near instant kills are the norm.

To my knowledge, with about four dozen mule deer, white-tail deer, and pronghorn to their credit, only three BIB bullets have failed to exit - all were of "soft" core alloy (1/2% or less antimony): one was a head-on, 168 Yd shot (132 Gr.,300WSM, @ 3400+FPS .), which entered just left of center and was recovered between the last two ribs on the "off side", having wrecked havoc on the respiratory goodies - the mature mule deer ran about 20 Yd and expired - the recovered bullet had shed about 55% of its weight; the second was a .257, 1/2% antimony cored, 110 Gr. bullet , fired at 3500+FPS (.257 IdiotMag) - again about a 160 Yd. shot, with the bedded mule deer angled toward my position - that bullet just missed the lead edge of the on-side shoulder, broke a couple of entry side "short-ribs", destroyed the lungs and liver , after which only traces of jacket remained; the deer ran about 15 Yd. and expired; the third was a mature white-tail doe (another "soft-cored" 110 Gr. 257) fired at a MV of about 3170 FPS, via a .257 Ackley Imp., at about 25 Yd. - a steeply quartering away affair - the deer dropped in its tracks. All three of these examples were with cores of 1/2% [or less] antimony - too soft for good hunting bullets . . and harder cores make better BR bullets too! ;)

Over the last two years, BIB ("hard-core") bullets (6MM -95 GR. and .257 - 110 Gr.) have been used for extensive culling operations  on a couple of Southern IA  farms which are managed for BIG white-tail bucks: terminal performance has been better than expected. During these operations, the shooters are extremely slective, making certain that "button" bucks are not killed, while a variety of shot angles are tested, whith an emphsis on GOOD shot placement, at ranges from 25 to 350 Yd. The goal is removing antlerless deer: during the Late season, where for practical purposes, tags are unlimited - as of last Friday, I could have still purchased in excess of 600 tags for Lucas County alone - and rifles are legal. Last year, one "tester" griped about the .25 Cal BIBs exiting - he perferred the more explosive performance of the Nosler Ballistic Tips (NO EXITS - even on broad-side, rib-cage hits) - I'll take an exit-hole EVERY time - on a deer sized critter, I consider a failure to exit as marginal performance ! ;) Therefore, especially when they are likely to go huntin', I no longer make "soft" cored bullets. RG

 Randy:

 I use your 125 gr, 7-ogive bullets in my Hunter BR rifle.  Do you consider these bullets as "hard core" and therefore in line with your recent comments about using them for deer?  If so, I've just solved another problem!  Thanks, Ed

Ed,

 I have been “lurking” and watching this post for Randy’s reply because he is the “boolet smit” and much more qualified to answer your questions…However, I have used BIB’s on Whitetail deer and can relay for you my experience. During the ’07 season my wife and I took 3 deer and a coyote with Randy’s .257 100 grain bullets at ranges from around 50 yards to the furthest shot of around 190 yards. No animal went further than 50 yards and with the exception of the coyote all bullets exited. The coyote was shot at around 150 yards and was facing me, both Randy and I wish I would have “Quincy’ed” the coyote to see why the bullet did not exit but I failed in that duty, but I can offer the guess that this “end-to-end” coyote had more resistance than a “broadside” Whitetail. These .257, 100 grain BIB’s were shot from a .257 Roberts at around 3100 fps MV. One other note is that Ruth’s buck was shot at a range of around 50 yards and fell in it’s tracks, again the bullet held together showing that the bullet would not “fail” at close range where some bullets I have experience with would not have held together.  I feel the .257 100 gr. BIB is a great hunting bullet in the Roberts!

Now here is my experience this season with the .308, 118gr BIB. I had Stan build me a .30BR for short range deer hunting (man, he builds a “killer” rifle!). I “pondered” over what bullet to use and because they shot so well for me I decided to use 7og.118 BIB’s and 34.o grains of H4198 *( around 3000fps MV). I killed two doe with this “set-up” at ranges of around 160-170 yards, both were “behind the shoulder” broadside shots. Both deer went around 50 yards before expiring. On both deer the bullet exited and appeared to have remained “intact”. One of the doe did not exhibit a lot of internal damage in the chest cavity and the second doe had what I had expected as far as damage to her vitals. My .30 BR was built with a 1:17 twist and after talking with other’s that have used the BR for deer I found that they opted for a “faster” twist and imparting more rotational stress of the bullet  and quiet possibly enhancing the terminal performance.

Ed, I have had good experiences using BIB’s on game . Like Randy, I feel a bullet should stay together and leave an exit….. none of the BIB’s came apart, failed to exit (on deer) or exhibited large amount of hemorrhage resulting in loss of edible meat. All that being said, with the experience I have stated, I am pleased with the bullet’s performance. Randy can give information concerning antimony content of these bullet's core (?)….I hope this information helps you with your decision and I must add that I had had nothing but good experiences with Randy’s bullet on game or on paper.

-H

Ed, though your's aren't the hardest of the "hard-core" BIB bullets, yes, they will , in my experience out perform Nosler BTs: the BIB bullets provide equally quick kills, but almost always EXIT - THE attribute, which I consider paramount when I state "out perform". RG