9/21/05 20:03:58 Jim Borden-->hi all
9/21/05 20:04:02 bob beyer-->Jim
9/21/05 20:04:03 Pete Wass-->Lads
9/21/05 20:04:06 bob beyer-->peter
9/21/05 20:04:08 Halldor Nikulasson-->Pete
9/21/05 20:04:16 Dwayne Garfield-->Pete
9/21/05 20:04:29 Stephen Perry-->lucky Jim wasn't here for the gun weighing comments
9/21/05 20:04:38 Jim Borden-->Leon--I was wrong about something the other night-all rifles do not have to be weighed--all rifles are to be inspected
9/21/05 20:04:50 Jim Borden',"'I. Inspection of Equipment"
"1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches",,
"2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line",,
9/21/05 20:04:52 Leon Garfield-->for what???
9/21/05 20:05:08 Bill Sargent-->lg/dg/dg  did we weigh guns?   no ok we should have according the prs of our association  however at present my understanding is that  weighing is the only requirement of rifle inspection for a sanctioned match,,
9/21/05 20:05:49 Bill Sargent-->hi jb I was typing and didn’t see u arrive,,
9/21/05 20:05:56 Leon Garfield-->So what does that mean JIM,,
9/21/05 20:06:00 Leon Garfield-->says MAY,,
9/21/05 20:06:12 Dwayne Garfield-->We were a knew club, we only done as we were told, we always tried to do right, then some of the people telling us what to do started bitching
9/21/05 20:06:14 Leon Garfield-->referees shall,,
9/21/05 20:06:14 Jim Borden-->see the pasted note above--all rifles are to be inspected--but it does not say what inspections are required--it is discretion of referees--at most matches--that means they are weighed,,
9/21/05 20:06:26 Pete Wass-->May is a fickle woman,,
9/21/05 20:06:27 Leon Garfield-->ok,,
9/21/05 20:06:30 Stephen Perry-->what good does it do to weigh your own gun. is this the honor system or does a shooter pack up and go home during a match if he hasn't made weight,,
9/21/05 20:06:54 Jim Borden-->referees weigh the rifles,,
9/21/05 20:07:11 Leon Garfield-->all of them or selected ones,,
9/21/05 20:07:26 Stephen Perry-->I would not select referees that did not weigh guns at san gabriel.,,
9/21/05 20:07:29 bob beyer-->up to the ref,,
9/21/05 20:07:41 *** Grosbier-->contestants can weigh their own rifle for their own information,,
9/21/05 20:07:45 Jim Borden-->competitors can check their own at any time--but the referees are to inspect all rifles---they may weigh some-measure some or whatever--usually--they are weighed,,
9/21/05 20:08:10 Leon Garfield-->been to 12 shoots never had a gun checked yet
9/21/05 20:08:36 Pete Wass-->Usually, refs only check scoring issues from what I have seen
9/21/05 20:08:39 Jim Borden-->Leon--that is because SCORE SHOOTING has gotten very LAX about the rules and that is going to change
9/21/05 20:08:50 bob beyer-->that’s what we are trying to straighten out Leon
9/21/05 20:08:55 *** Grosbier-->that will probably change Leon
9/21/05 20:09:16 Stephen Perry-->a scale and weights are always available at my matches and ref weigh all sp/var guns every time. no big deal takes 10-15 min
9/21/05 20:09:20 Jim Borden-->hi Dave
9/21/05 20:09:26 David NMN Apple-->hi Jim
9/21/05 20:09:30 Jim Borden-->that is right Stephen
9/21/05 20:09:33 Leon Garfield-->Hi David
9/21/05 20:09:46 bob beyer-->David
9/21/05 20:09:50 Stephen Perry-->thanks Jim
9/21/05 20:09:55 Jim Borden-->Leon--do not take things personal--I have not heard anyone griping about Vermont
9/21/05 20:10:09 bob beyer-->vt. is great
9/21/05 20:10:22 Bill Sargent-->JB please I'm getting confused  48 hrs. ago guns needed to be weighed at each match.  Now all inspections are at the discretion of the refs?  i.e. nothing is required
9/21/05 20:10:29 Pete Wass-->Vt has done a wonderful job for a new club
9/21/05 20:10:44 bob beyer-->for sure
9/21/05 20:11:16 Dwayne Garfield-->Hi Butch you old rascal
9/21/05 20:11:16 Leon Garfield-->Alls I am saying is that ALL clubs need to do it to make it work. I have no Problem with any of the rules my gun is well within them, I just don't want people saying I’m not going there they inspect guns and no one else does....
9/21/05 20:11:20 Leon Garfield-->Butch
9/21/05 20:11:23 Jim Borden-->Bill--I mis-spoke---I reread the rulebook section and it says all guns are to be inspected--I pasted it in above--I will paste it here again--nothing confusing about it
9/21/05 20:11:28 *** Grosbier-->He said he was wrong Bill
9/21/05 20:11:33 bob beyer-->he said he had made a mistake bill
9/21/05 20:11:38 Jim Borden',"'I. Inspection of Equipment",
"1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches",,,
"2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line",,,
9/21/05 20:12:08 Pete Wass-->BS, this points up the need to make the rules both understandable and consistent
9/21/05 20:12:27 Bill Sargent-->k Jim so NO inspection of guns is required at any match including nat's etc. in LBS
9/21/05 20:12:33 Stephen Perry-->bill match directors that don't respect the weighing rule will always pick refs that don't weigh
9/21/05 20:12:37 Jim Borden-->Pete--read it--it is very clear--every rifle will be inspected and it is the referees discretion of what to inspect--
9/21/05 20:12:38 Bill Sargent-->IBS
9/21/05 20:13:00 Jim Borden-->Bill--no all guns will be inspected
9/21/05 20:13:02 *** Grosbier-->no Pete it shows anybody can make a slightly incorrect statement  that’s all,
9/21/05 20:13:07 Pete Wass-->Jim, it can't be very clear if there was a misunderstanding
9/21/05 20:13:38 Bill Sargent-->ok Jim they will be inspected and what is checked is up to the refs?,
9/21/05 20:13:44 Leon Garfield-->I am going to write a new rule for inspection for next year, I think it should only be done to the top 3 in each class,
9/21/05 20:13:55 Jim Borden-->Pete--I have had it with this BS---I made a mistake--I am human---it has been a practice for years in group shooting to weigh all guns to meet the inspection requirement,
9/21/05 20:13:55 bob beyer-->how can you misunderstand that statement,
9/21/05 20:13:57 Leon Garfield-->the dead line is JULY 1st right Jim,
9/21/05 20:14:14 Jim Borden-->Bill--that is right,
9/21/05 20:14:16 Stephen Perry-->what happens in IBS if a shooter refuses to have his gun weighed,
9/21/05 20:14:21 Jim Borden-->right Leon,
9/21/05 20:14:32 Jim Borden-->he gets DQ'd,
9/21/05 20:14:33 *** Grosbier-->Problem with that Leon is inspection after the fact sometimes creates bad feelings,
9/21/05 20:14:57 Leon Garfield-->Not if your legal and we  are all supposed to be,
9/21/05 20:14:58 Jim Borden-->Leon--I do not like inspecting winners--the competitor should have an opportunity to make things right,
9/21/05 20:15:02 Pete Wass-->I wasn't picking at you Jim. I didn't know you had made the statement.,
9/21/05 20:15:07 Dwayne Garfield-->then you should not shot if gun is illegal,
9/21/05 20:15:17 Leon Garfield-->I think we all know what the rules are so we should be legal
9/21/05 20:15:57 Jim Borden-->I have been in this sport for 28 years and I believe that the way to inspect equipment is before match 1 begins
9/21/05 20:16:10 Pete Wass-->I think there should be a meeting before every match where everything is explained to competitors. Mandatory attendance
9/21/05 20:16:14 *** Grosbier-->all contestants are not cheaters some times a mistake is made like changing to a scope you did not realize was heavier
9/21/05 20:16:51 Jim Borden-->Pete--the range officer reads very specific instructions and all competitors are present--and I bet I could take a poll on what was said and almost no one would know
9/21/05 20:16:55 Stephen Perry-->if more ranges would weigh guns more shooters would demand guns be weighed so to avoid not knowing if they made weight
9/21/05 20:17:04 Bill Sargent-->k Jim that's no problem at all>  It gives the match directors and ref lee way to determine infractions.  The part in the rule discussions that have been missing is that the people who spend their time running events only want to do the right thing.  All they are looking for is support from IBS and guidance on how to do things.
9/21/05 20:17:05 Leon Garfield-->Well I am new Jim and I don't know how inspection works cause I ain't see any
9/21/05 20:17:12 Pete Wass-->I agree Jim.
9/21/05 20:17:29 Jim Borden-->he explains what to do for hold your fire and cease fire and crossfire and no one pays attention
9/21/05 20:17:31 bob beyer-->the rule you pasted Jim says preferably as shooters leave line.
9/21/05 20:17:43 Pete Wass-->That is why I think a meeting could help in that regard
9/21/05 20:17:49 Jim Borden-->leave line from warm-up has been the practice
9/21/05 20:18:13 Jim Borden-->if no warm-up--practice was to weigh on the way to the line
9/21/05 20:18:41 *** Grosbier-->shooting an overweight rifle in Warm-up is not grounds for DQ
9/21/05 20:18:58 bob beyer-->thx
9/21/05 20:19:03 Jim Borden-->***--that is correct,
9/21/05 20:19:30 Pete Wass-->I think everything should be done before the event starts, including warm-up
9/21/05 20:19:38 bob beyer-->when may they omit warm-up,
9/21/05 20:19:39 *** Grosbier-->but if you win and are found overweight it is mandatory,
9/21/05 20:20:12 Stephen Perry-->in group not so ***. if wu can count as a wr group,
9/21/05 20:20:14 Jim Borden-->warm-up may be omitted when two aggregates are fired in one day,
9/21/05 20:20:19 David NMN Apple-->Jim, if a creedmore goes backwards into the warm-up shouldn't the warm-up fall under the match conditions?
9/21/05 20:20:26 Bill Sargent-->As I understand now checking, not checking, and when to check is up to refs?
9/21/05 20:20:32 David NMN Apple-->over weight gun should not be shot at all,
9/21/05 20:20:42 bob beyer-->thx again,
9/21/05 20:20:46 Jim Borden-->Bill-that is entirely correct,
9/21/05 20:20:54 Bill Sargent-->k thanks,
9/21/05 20:21:12 Halldor Nikulasson-->night guys and take care!!,
9/21/05 20:21:15 Jim Borden-->Dave--makes sense--and last I knew creedmore does not use the warm-up,
9/21/05 20:21:23 Jim Borden-->Night hall,
9/21/05 20:21:27 Bill Sargent-->tk hn,
9/21/05 20:21:28 bob beyer-->see ya hall
9/21/05 20:21:31 Stephen Perry-->night hall
9/21/05 20:21:58 *** Grosbier-->I agree and it is contestants responsibility but if shown to be overweight before actual match it does not hurt near as much
9/21/05 20:22:09 Jim Borden-->I agree ***
9/21/05 20:22:39 Jim Borden-->Dave--when does creedmore go back to warm-up?
9/21/05 20:22:54 *** Grosbier-->gets back to illegal rifles are not always intentionally so
9/21/05 20:23:02 Pete Wass-->I wonder why anyone would want to push the limits that hard to be overweight
9/21/05 20:23:21 Jim Borden-->Pete--some gunsmiths use baby scales
9/21/05 20:23:51 Pete Wass-->Ah so, I use my Stren scales which seem to be perfect
9/21/05 20:23:53 Jim Borden-->not supporting that--just want to give the competitor the benefit of the doubt
9/21/05 20:23:54 David NMN Apple-->if 2 are tied throughout doesn't the tie breaker go back into the warm-up?
9/21/05 20:24:07 Jim Borden-->David--no
9/21/05 20:24:19 Bill Sargent-->guys  you are not requiring weighing  how can you say how and when it should be done?
9/21/05 20:24:20 Jim Borden-->David--I had better check--I think no
9/21/05 20:24:35 David NMN Apple-->thank you
9/21/05 20:24:48 Jim Borden-->Bill--I am not saying when and how it should be done--I suggested when it should be done
9/21/05 20:25:01 David NMN Apple-->how is the creedmore broken then?
9/21/05 20:25:35 Jim Borden-->if it is all 25 x--there is no breaking it--or if the x string is exactly the same-there is no breaking it
9/21/05 20:25:40 Pete Wass-->Several Winter meetings ago there was a long discussion about weighing. As I recall,
9/21/05 20:25:46 bob beyer-->lot of guys double tap or don't shoot all bulls in warm-up
9/21/05 20:25:48 Stephen Perry-->true *** but shooting a possible wr with a gun overweight gun known by the shooter in the wu and switching to a legal weight gun to be weighed later is grounds for a dq if the ref can corner the overweight gun. no possible wr.
9/21/05 20:26:30 Bill Sargent-->k  again no problem  if we don't have to do it then we can decide when and how and where and then go to the rules to see what to do if there is a problem  correct?
9/21/05 20:26:31 Pete Wass-->Weighed rifles should be marked
9/21/05 20:26:34 David NMN Apple-->thank you
9/21/05 20:26:36 Jim Borden-->if a shooter shoots warm-up with overweight rifle and shoots a possible record--then the rifle is weighed--the record does not count
9/21/05 20:26:42 David j. halblom sr.-->wow!
9/21/05 20:26:50 Jim Borden-->they are marked on the weigh in sheet
9/21/05 20:26:51 Stephen Perry-->true Pete
9/21/05 20:27:10 Pete Wass-->Not the rifle itself though
9/21/05 20:27:21 Ashley Carr-->good night, got to go.
9/21/05 20:27:35 Pete Wass-->A sticker or something should be used
9/21/05 20:27:41 Stephen Perry-->night
9/21/05 20:27:42 Jim Borden-->right Pete--and maybe we have some dishonest people--buut I would like to believe no one is going to deliberately cheat,
9/21/05 20:27:44 bob beyer-->see ya,
9/21/05 20:28:22 Stephen Perry-->was ash a guy or gal,
9/21/05 20:28:38 Jim Borden-->Bill--are you still concerned about the weighing and inspecting thing?,
9/21/05 20:28:45 Pete Wass-->Well, a system makes everyone honest
9/21/05 20:28:56 Jim Borden-->No it does not Pete,
9/21/05 20:28:56 bob beyer-->are they marked on the sheet by s/n,
9/21/05 20:29:10 *** Grosbier-->contestant #,
9/21/05 20:29:11 Jim Borden-->they are marked on sheet by referee,
9/21/05 20:29:15 Pete Wass-->No Bob , by competitor number
9/21/05 20:29:15 Bill Sargent-->I hate to repeat- what weigh in sheet? We may or may not have one depending on what the refs for our particular match decide to check? Right?,
9/21/05 20:29:33 Stephen Perry-->NBRSA is guilty of not weighing at a lot of matches too,
9/21/05 20:29:55 Jim Borden-->Bill--that is right--seems like you have a burning issue here that will not let go--why not verbalize it?,
9/21/05 20:30:18 Pete Wass-->A grease pencil would work just fine,
9/21/05 20:30:31 David j. halblom sr.-->I must state that at ALL regional and National events, NBRSA, I have been weighed!
9/21/05 20:31:00 Jim Borden-->I believe referees are adults and we do not need more specificity on what needs checked and when it needs to be checked--we just need to have referees that DO check,
9/21/05 20:31:04 *** Grosbier-->WRITING ON a contestants rifle is not going to go over well Pete
9/21/05 20:31:13 Stephen Perry-->At Midland guns were weighed in HV only
9/21/05 20:31:23 Pete Wass-->A problem we face is many refs don't know the rules
9/21/05 20:31:37 David j. halblom sr.-->I believe that the range officer books suggest weigh in.  What more would you like?
9/21/05 20:31:51 Jim Borden-->Pete--guess I agree with that and that is why I picked the referees for last weekend
9/21/05 20:31:52 Pete Wass-->A grease pencil will never harm anything ***
9/21/05 20:32:06 David j. halblom sr.-->NBRSA uses a sticker to show that the rifle has been weighed
9/21/05 20:32:13 Dwayne Garfield-->suggests is the word
9/21/05 20:32:32 Stephen Perry-->at Nationals sometimes
9/21/05 20:32:41 Dwayne Garfield-->doesn't say has to
9/21/05 20:32:41 Bill Sargent-->absolutely not never been weighed (my rifle)  I'm new this year and love the sport but with only 4-5 br shooters here we all need to understand what to do.. Our only agenda is making the sport grow and having done this a lot in another sport I know that firm understanding of the rules is the only way to make people happy
9/21/05 20:32:51 Pete Wass-->Something should be done to make sure more people know the rllesif they are to be refs; like a testing procedure
9/21/05 20:33:13 David j. halblom sr.-->My current hunter gun has been to 4 Nationals.  There are 4 stickers on it
9/21/05 20:33:38 Pete Wass-->Good Point David H.
9/21/05 20:33:57 Stephen Perry-->Hunter true David Group not so. I have been to 8 Nats and only have 1 sticker
9/21/05 20:34:38 Jim Borden-->Pete--who is going to administer it?  I have worked on the board for 23 years and am getting mighty tired --volunteers are few and far in between----rules that require this kind of stuff need to come with a staffing solution cause it ain't going to be me
9/21/05 20:34:43 Leon Garfield-->I’m not good enough to go to a national.....LOL,
9/21/05 20:34:43 Bill Sargent-->if not happy at least coming back,
9/21/05 20:35:05 David NMN Apple-->Pete for administrator,
9/21/05 20:35:21 Jim Borden-->Bill-I agree consistency in administering the rules is important,
9/21/05 20:35:22 *** Grosbier-->anybody is good enough to go to a National Leon,
9/21/05 20:35:25 David j. halblom sr.-->Bill," you are absolutely correct.  It is incumbent upon the officials of each shoot to familiar with the rule book.  But they are ""volunteers"".  How do we force them to read?",
9/21/05 20:35:39 Pete Wass-->Perhaps we need to contract outside with someone. I don't mind paying more if things are tightened up,
9/21/05 20:35:48 Jim Borden-->The range officer guide that Michelle Sutton put together is a great guide for ranges,
9/21/05 20:35:53 David j. halblom sr.-->Leon, we are ALL GOOD Enough!
9/21/05 20:36:30 Leon Garfield-->So you think the rules need to be tightened up Pete,
9/21/05 20:36:35 Leon Garfield-->To loose,
9/21/05 20:36:46 Pete Wass-->I have been president of a volunteer Community Development org for 5 years. I am tired of it too but someone's got to do it and I have the desire still,
9/21/05 20:36:59 Bill Sargent-->jb,dh,  you don't.  You just let them know what is required and then when they do their best you support them or if they f---- up you also support them and educate them and move on
9/21/05 20:37:13 Jim Borden-->Good for you Pete--maybe you can put some energy into the IBS,
9/21/05 20:37:19 *** Grosbier-->Referees should be picked for their experience and based on your belief they can be unbiased in my opinion,
9/21/05 20:37:27 Pete Wass-->Yes I do and I think everyone needs to know them and that everyone running an event needs to know them,
9/21/05 20:37:28 David j. halblom sr.-->Pete, what you are describing is very similar the the SCCA's official school.  But I would offer that even it is rife with lack of knowledge/experience
9/21/05 20:37:44 Jim Borden-->Bill- I agree and that is what we do
9/21/05 20:38:01 Leon Garfield-->So when are you going to start Pete
9/21/05 20:38:09 Jim Borden-->I agree and that is what we do
9/21/05 20:38:17 Pete Wass-->Start what Leon ?
9/21/05 20:38:30 Leon Garfield-->tightening up the rules
9/21/05 20:38:49 Jim Borden-->I spent and hour and a half with the union county people Sunday night recapping things and gleaning the learning’s and improvements for the future
9/21/05 20:38:57 Pete Wass-->I thought this might be a beginning; hope it is anyway
9/21/05 20:39:19 Jim Borden-->Have not seen you do anything in that direction yet Pete
9/21/05 20:39:26 Bill Sargent-->yup a volunteer is worth 20 competitors every day
9/21/05 20:39:39 Pete Wass-->First there has to be the recognition that there is a need
9/21/05 20:39:45 Leon Garfield-->were out of volunteers bill
9/21/05 20:40:03 Jim Borden-->Leon-common story there
9/21/05 20:40:12 David NMN Apple-->a great start begins with an educated shooter. if the existing rules are not being followed, there is a remedy/procedure for correction
9/21/05 20:40:15 Leon Garfield-->I agree
9/21/05 20:40:47 Bill Sargent-->lg then we'll find one or take turns not shooting or whatever if we really want to do this
9/21/05 20:40:51 Pete Wass-->What would you have me do Jim ?,
9/21/05 20:40:59 David j. halblom sr.-->To all, how many competitors do you know who have a current rule book??????
9/21/05 20:41:03 Jim Borden-->get started on your rewrites,
9/21/05 20:41:13 Leon Garfield-->IF I can't shoot I am done, I am in it to shoot
9/21/05 20:41:23 David j. halblom sr.-->And submit them for 25 added signatures,
9/21/05 20:41:29 Pete Wass-->That will come in due time Jim.,
9/21/05 20:41:30 David j. halblom sr.-->signatures,
9/21/05 20:41:33 bob beyer-->I would just as soon volunteer for something, but I live 100 miles from the nearest range, and also the nearest fellow shooter.
9/21/05 20:41:50 Stephen Perry-->I do David,
9/21/05 20:41:53 Jim Borden-->Pete--you are in for an education on ambiguity......,
9/21/05 20:42:05 Pete Wass-->The internet will be of enormous help here.,
9/21/05 20:42:10 Dwayne Garfield-->Well I’ve been an Inspector for 30 plus years and I can be unbiased had a lot of experience, I can insp. your guns. no allows.
9/21/05 20:42:31 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--that is good,
9/21/05 20:42:48 Dwayne Garfield-->I have ?,
9/21/05 20:43:05 Leon Garfield-->Jim if someone shows up with a gun that don't come into spec can they still compete but not get any recognition by IBS,
9/21/05 20:43:06 Pete Wass-->I hope there will be interest all over the country in having a good solid base to work from,
9/21/05 20:43:07 Bill Sargent-->dg we don't have to inspect guns in any way.  It's up to us what to do.
9/21/05 20:43:17 Jim Borden-->Leon--yes
9/21/05 20:43:17 *** Grosbier-->yes
9/21/05 20:43:34 Dwayne Garfield-->You allow so many ozs over  weight, but no allowance on width  why
9/21/05 20:43:34 Leon Garfield-->so he can shoot for the daily plaque but no points
9/21/05 20:43:40 Bill Sargent-->k I mean up to the refs at the match what to do
9/21/05 20:43:44 Jim Borden-->Bill--all guns must be inspected----it is ref decision what to inspect
9/21/05 20:43:56 *** Grosbier-->there is an allowance for scale error
9/21/05 20:44:00 Stephen Perry-->1 oz dwayne
9/21/05 20:44:00 Leon Garfield-->Right I think bill is confused about that
9/21/05 20:44:06 *** Grosbier-->not for rifle weight
9/21/05 20:44:19 Jim Borden-->he can not get plaque either--no awards-no money--no points--shoot fo rfun only
9/21/05 20:44:26 Pete Wass-->One must first know what to inspect however
9/21/05 20:44:31 Leon Garfield-->oik thanks Jim
9/21/05 20:44:32 Stephen Perry-->didn't we hash this out before ***
9/21/05 20:44:44 Dwayne Garfield-->no allowance for mic error
9/21/05 20:45:04 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--that is correct
9/21/05 20:45:29 Dwayne Garfield-->I make my living with a mic and verier
9/21/05 20:45:37 Pete Wass-->Has anyone ever seen a barrel taper checked ?
9/21/05 20:45:37 Dwayne Garfield-->vernier
9/21/05 20:45:37 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--me too
9/21/05 20:45:38 Leon Garfield-->so 3.0000 is it on stock width
9/21/05 20:46:01 Jim Borden-->Leon--no 3 inches is stock width which has been taken to be 3.0000
9/21/05 20:46:04 *** Grosbier-->I have
9/21/05 20:46:25 *** Grosbier-->seen barrel taper checked
9/21/05 20:46:30 Leon Garfield',"'Right Jim That is 3"" no MORE",
9/21/05 20:46:35 Dwayne Garfield-->then I say no tol. on weight
9/21/05 20:46:48 Pete Wass-->I never have or ever seen a stock checked
9/21/05 20:47:07 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--then write a proposed rule and get the signatures--not sure what this vendetta on weight is all about
9/21/05 20:47:19 David j. halblom sr.-->Unless you are going to get the scales certified prior to EACH match, the scale must have an allowance
9/21/05 20:47:32 Jim Borden-->I have seen lots of stocks checked--even saw some fancy paint jobs filed to make under 3 inches
9/21/05 20:47:33 Dwayne Garfield-->To much BS to go through
9/21/05 20:48:00 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--if it is too much BS--then I guess it will have to stay the way it is
9/21/05 20:48:07 David j. halblom sr.-->night guys.  MAX
9/21/05 20:48:21 Leon Garfield-->mine weighs 10lbs 14ozs and stock is 2.750 so I am good to go anyway
9/21/05 20:48:25 *** Grosbier-->compliance with rules is not BS it is what gives a level playing field
9/21/05 20:48:45 Pete Wass-->Thank you ***
9/21/05 20:48:50 Jim Borden-->Leon--looks like you shoot HV right?
9/21/05 20:49:17 Leon Garfield-->IS IBS going to supply clubs with a template for checking the stock to make sure it is the right angle   and Yes Jim I do
9/21/05 20:49:25 Jim Borden-->I think Dwayne is saying the change of rule is too much BS or at least that is what I understood him to say
9/21/05 20:49:40 Bill Sargent-->I’m NOT CONFUSED.  the GUNS SHALL BE INSPECTED BUT IS UP TO THE REFS WHAT WILL BE INSPECTED.  IF SOMETHING THEY INSPECT IS NOT OK THEN THEY PROCEED TO THE RULE BOOK TO DETERMINE WHAT TO DO.  Sorry about that my coffee is kicking in. Again my understanding is that if our refs decide not to measure anything that is ok?
9/21/05 20:50:04 Leon Garfield-->NO bill
9/21/05 20:50:05 Jim Borden-->Bill--not really--in other words no
9/21/05 20:50:24 Leon Garfield-->they have to check something period
9/21/05 20:50:34 Jim Borden-->let me paste it here again--read real carefully sentence 2.
9/21/05 20:50:34 Leon Garfield-->they can determine WHAT to check
9/21/05 20:50:41 Jim Borden',"'I. Inspection of Equipment"
"1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches",,
"2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line",,,,
9/21/05 20:51:10 Jim Borden',"'2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line", preferably as the competitors leave the firing line but at the Referees' discretion, during the firing of the matches
9/21/05 20:51:14 Bill Sargent-->no kidding but what they do is up to them,
9/21/05 20:51:15 David NMN Apple-->I feel that should be done at all matches,
9/21/05 20:51:33 Leon Garfield-->but they can not decide as you said to check nothing,
9/21/05 20:51:34 Jim Borden-->Bill--that is right and I see nothing wrong with that--do you?,
9/21/05 20:51:49 *** Grosbier-->but according to the rules they should do something as opposed to nothing,
9/21/05 20:51:57 Jim Borden-->***--that is correct,
9/21/05 20:52:24 Bill Sargent-->not at all  what I'm saying if they choose to not measure anything that is ok    unless you want to define inspect,
9/21/05 20:52:24 Jim Borden-->For first 7 to 8 years I competed--my rifles were weighed at every match I went to it,
9/21/05 20:52:35 Leon Garfield-->Guess I will have to come to penn so I can see how inspections work for I have never seen it,
9/21/05 20:53:00 Jim Borden-->inspect means inspect-----they have to check something---,
9/21/05 20:53:25 Leon Garfield-->WOW,
9/21/05 20:53:29 Jim Borden-->Leon--that does not mean they are not done--where have you shot?,
9/21/05 20:53:30 *** Grosbier-->Not really Leon I think the point is things have become to Lax almost everywhere,
9/21/05 20:53:32 bob beyer-->stick finger in mag of hunter gun,
9/21/05 20:53:49 Leon Garfield-->Maine and of coarse VT
9/21/05 20:53:52 Jim Borden-->bob-yes that is an inspection
9/21/05 20:53:59 Leon Garfield-->which hell we don't know what we are doing
9/21/05 20:54:02 *** Grosbier-->I as a referee have done that Bob
9/21/05 20:54:13 bob beyer-->absolutely
9/21/05 20:54:25 Jim Borden-->Leon--hopefully some of this dialogue will help that change
9/21/05 20:54:33 *** Grosbier-->you can learn Leon it is not that difficult
9/21/05 20:54:58 Leon Garfield-->I will say that we are going to have a meeting this winter to figure out what we need and how to do it so we will be up to snuff.....
9/21/05 20:55:07 bob beyer-->it doesn't sound like it is
9/21/05 20:55:11 Jim Borden-->I am more than willing to talk to any club director and help with this topic--I just will not do it for them
9/21/05 20:55:33 Jim Borden-->Leon, Bill-Dwayne--are you coming to winter meeting?
9/21/05 20:55:35 Bill Sargent',"'hmm - ok our refs can decide what as long as an ""inspection"" is done",
9/21/05 20:55:35 Leon Garfield-->And as I told you the other night Jim I think I have it all figured out and know what to do. I just wish every club would do it like I have told you already
9/21/05 20:55:47 Jim Borden-->Bill-you got it
9/21/05 20:55:51 Leon Garfield-->HEY HEY BILL
9/21/05 20:56:07 Leon Garfield-->I have not problem with the rulesssssssssssss
9/21/05 20:56:15 Bill Sargent-->k Jim that makes it easy,
9/21/05 20:56:39 Jim Borden-->and as I said before I would SUGGEST that one of the inspections be a weigh in,
9/21/05 20:56:40 David NMN Apple-->Leon you are right.,
9/21/05 20:56:47 Leon Garfield-->I am a committee chairmen for the united steelworkers trust me we have contracts and have to follow them so I know how it is done,
9/21/05 20:57:28 Jim Borden-->Bill-Leon and Dwayne are you guys coming to winter meeting?,
9/21/05 20:57:36 Dwayne Garfield-->No,
9/21/05 20:57:48 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--why not?,
9/21/05 20:57:56 bob beyer-->where is it this year Jim,
9/21/05 20:58:06 David NMN Apple-->Harrisburg,
9/21/05 20:58:08 Bill Sargent-->our refs can do their thing and we have no argument with what another set of refs at another range may choose to do.  I have absolutely no problem with that procedure.,
9/21/05 20:58:14 Jim Borden-->Immense opportunity to learn and interact,
9/21/05 20:58:23 Dwayne Garfield-->To far for old Dad,
9/21/05 20:58:27 Leon Garfield-->I would like to thank you all for an interesting chat, I would like to come to penn Jim but don't know at this time if I will be able to, I don't get much time off from work and like to keep it for shooting if I can.....Once again thanks
9/21/05 20:59:02 Jim Borden-->Leon--but part of running matches is learning what it is all about and it will make the shooting go easier,
9/21/05 20:59:23 Leon Garfield-->Reed is the match Director I am just a volunteer,
9/21/05 20:59:26 bob beyer-->I’ll be in fla.,
9/21/05 20:59:31 Leon Garfield-->he makes the call I follow
9/21/05 20:59:32 bob beyer-->long way
9/21/05 21:00:02 Leon Garfield-->I know what you want done Jim as I explained already
9/21/05 21:00:42 Leon Garfield-->Ours shoots have gone great, the only thing that has been missing is the inspection of epuip
9/21/05 21:00:58 bob beyer-->can we buy a current rule book from Joan
9/21/05 21:01:09 Leon Garfield-->and people getting up from there benches after they shoot
9/21/05 21:01:27 *** Grosbier-->you are not alone Leon
9/21/05 21:02:01 Leon Garfield-->other than that I think we are close to what you want done, I may be wrong but all the feedback we have gotten has been good. IF there is something people need to bring it to our attention
9/21/05 21:02:07 Leon Garfield-->I know ***
9/21/05 21:02:13 Jim Borden-->Bob--you can download rulebook from website for most current--or Joan can mail you one
9/21/05 21:02:25 Leon Garfield-->Mike
9/21/05 21:02:32 mike ricklefs-->hi all
9/21/05 21:02:35 bob beyer-->I would like a book\
9/21/05 21:02:42 Leon Garfield-->Once again Jim and All thanks for the info and chat
9/21/05 21:02:54 bob beyer-->what’s her biz. no.
9/21/05 21:03:00 Jim Borden-->Leon--I have only heard good stuff about VT--except the wind next to bench 10--can you fix that ? :)
9/21/05 21:03:28 Leon Garfield-->LOL   tell Jim he can do it........LOl
9/21/05 21:03:39 Jim Borden-->Bob--email a request to joan@bordenrifles.com and she will send you one--make sure you include your current address