9/19/05 19:56:49 Jim Borden-->hi all,
9/19/05 19:57:02 Jim Borden-->Leon--what's up?,
9/19/05 19:57:12 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Hi Jim, we have a little question re: a DQ at the Nationals," during a ""cease fire"" command..."
9/19/05 19:57:14 *** Grosbier-->we are discussing disqualification for firing during the cease fire command,
9/19/05 19:57:18 Leon Garfield-->*** was telling us someone got disqualified at shooting during the command commence fire, It was my understanding that we had till the e in fire
9/19/05 19:57:40 Jim Borden',"'the shooter admitted to firing after the word ""fire"""
9/19/05 19:57:49 *** Grosbier-->no during cease fire,
9/19/05 19:57:50 Leon Garfield-->ok didn't hear it hat way,
9/19/05 19:57:52 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->No question then...,
9/19/05 19:57:59 Leon Garfield-->DQ,
9/19/05 19:58:19 Leon Garfield-->that was easy
9/19/05 19:58:41 Jim Borden-->he aid he had finger on trigger during commence and did not get it off until after fire--or at least that was the way it was reported to me
9/19/05 19:59:09 nickloy-->Too all the guys on in this room ,I am not going to stay for the whole session, but I have a question for Jim about scoring a VFS target. If the Official scorer cannot make a call as to the score,  can the plug be removed and then replaced
 or once the plug is removed can it not be replaced
9/19/05 19:59:13 Bill Sargent-->cease-bang-fire is ok or not
9/19/05 19:59:21 Jim Borden-->there should have been at least two more dq's--one for bolt in rifle in cart at firing line
9/19/05 19:59:33 Leon Garfield-->Ok thanks Jim that is what I thought you had told us we had till the e in fire
9/19/05 19:59:41 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->One was to watch his clock better eh... and you can only plus it once...
9/19/05 19:00:15 Francis Becigneul-->Early crowd
9/19/05 19:00:22 Dwayne Garfield-->we get20-30 deg below
9/19/05 20:00:00 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->plug
9/19/05 20:00:05 Jim Borden-->nick   intent is that it be in target and stay there until refs have ruled on it
9/19/05 20:00:25 nickloy-->Jim,';
9/19/05 20:00:27 Leon Garfield-->OK Bill
9/19/05 20:00:43 Jim Borden-->yes bill--that is ok
9/19/05 20:00:54 Jim Borden-->kind of close--but ok
9/19/05 20:00:57 *** Grosbier-->so you need to call a referee every time you plug a target ?
9/19/05 20:01:21 Jim Borden-->if you believe your judgment on the plug will be questioned--the answer is yes
9/19/05 20:01:21 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Yup, or else why plug it?';
9/19/05 20:01:27 Leon Garfield-->I don't think I will ever come close to the commence.....lol
9/19/05 20:02:15 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->So what do you have planned tonight Jim?
9/19/05 20:02:15 Jim Borden-->if the plug has been removed and the score gets protested--then obviously the plug has to be reinserted
9/19/05 20:02:36 nickloy-->we have had a large number of clubs who will remove the plug or go back and re-score the target by replacing the plug. Can this be clarified in the rule book too stop this practice
9/19/05 20:02:38 Leon Garfield-->that does happen Jim,';
9/19/05 20:02:52 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)',"'And the target marked a ""P"" for plugged...';",
9/19/05 20:03:26 nickloy-->Keith,"yes the target is marked with a ""p""';"
9/19/05 20:03:33 *** Grosbier-->the rulebook says plug not to be removed until a decision is made it does not say a referee decision has been made,
9/19/05 20:03:43 Jim Borden-->nick--I think the intent is rather clear --if you would like to see a more specific rule written--you can write a proposed change and get 25 signatures and submit for addition to meeting agenda,
9/19/05 20:04:05 nickloy-->***,Can you tell were it is in the rule book
9/19/05 20:04:15 *** Grosbier-->I will look,
9/19/05 20:04:33 Leon Garfield-->If a scorer plugs your target and you think it should have been an X, you go to the refs and they have to insert the plug to check it, that is the way it is';
9/19/05 20:04:45 Jim Borden-->Correct Leon,
9/19/05 20:04:49 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Myself, being a Cdn, I like the NBRSA template vs. the plug... you can put the template on it 100 times and it does not chg the hole..';
9/19/05 20:05:18 Jim Borden-->I LOVE the template--it is also more accurate as it does not drift with how the hole is punched in the target,
9/19/05 20:05:26 nickloy-->Jim I have looked at the rule book and cannot find any reference to the plug remaining in the target,
9/19/05 20:05:52 *** Grosbier-->Page 19 section F2 of online rulebook,
9/19/05 20:06:02 nickloy-->Jim, were can this template be found
9/19/05 20:06:18 Jim Borden',"'2) Scoring plug is to be placed in target by Scorer and not removed until a decision is made.  If Scorer cannot arrive at a decision then it is to be made by the Referees before the plug is removed.  At this time the letters ""PR"" are to be placed by the score. If the plug is used and the Referees are not needed"," the letter ""P"" is used.';",
9/19/05 20:06:39 Leon Garfield-->IBS shoot has to be scored with plug, IF you want to use the template you will have to make a rule change
9/19/05 20:06:49 *** Grosbier-->true,
9/19/05 20:07:03 Jim Borden-->Bill Meuser from St Louis has a great template --different than NBRSA and correct Leon,
9/19/05 20:07:14 Jim Borden-->Now--on to the agenda for tonight,
9/19/05 20:08:11 Jim Borden-->I would like to take a few moments to review some things I observed this past weekend
9/19/05 20:08:38 nickloy-->Jim,Iam going out my truck and getting my copy of the rule book and make sure the clubs follow the rules.';
9/19/05 20:08:55 Jim Borden-->It is obvious to me that some clubs have apparently been lax at enforcing some rules because too many competitors had sloppy habits
9/19/05 20:10:07 Jim Borden-->I shot relay 1--had a competitor from relay #2 setting his equipment up on bench next to me while relay 1 was setting up and then he would leave his gun there--that is NOT ok
9/19/05 20:10:36 Jim Borden-->I challenged him on it and he quit setting his gun on it but continued to set up his equipment.
9/19/05 20:11:01 *** Grosbier-->interesting point
9/19/05 20:11:04 Francis Becigneul-->Absolute No No
9/19/05 20:11:37 Jim Borden-->a competitor from really #2 changed a scope on Saturday Night and then sat down on a bench on relay 1 on Sunday morning expecting to sight in and could not understand why it was not o.k. for him to do that
9/19/05 20:11:55 Jim Borden-->I told him he had to do it in HIS 10 minutes just like any of us on really 1
9/19/05 20:12:48 Jim Borden-->same competitor routinely went in front of the bench to pick up his rests and bags--no need for them to be there in first place just look at pictures on IBS webpage of Union county firing line
9/19/05 20:13:34 Ron Baldner-->was there no warm up match?
9/19/05 20:13:47 Jim Borden-->I did not have him DQ'd as I was already getting to be called the hard a___.  What really surprised me is that he was not challenged by other competitors-who were running around whispering about it
9/19/05 20:14:01 Jim Borden-->Ron--it was the warm-up
9/19/05 20:14:22 Ron Baldner-->thanks
9/19/05 20:14:24 David NMN Apple-->2 hours from warm-up to relay 1
9/19/05 20:14:51 *** Grosbier-->not quite David but close
9/19/05 20:15:00 Bill Sargent-->Jim leaving the bench and cleaning up your stuff before the end of a relay is ok?
9/19/05 20:15:19 Jim Borden-->I seem to hear a lot about how rules need to be followed and enforced and that they need to be more specific and then watch those that are giving me the feedback sit back and do nothing to challenge inappropriate behavior--that is NOT ok
9/19/05 20:15:40 Francis Becigneul-->No. Bill
9/19/05 20:16:13 Jim Borden-->bill--that is club discretion--but highly suggested that everyone stay put until really is finished.  Union County at MY request instituted that everyone stay seated until really was finished
9/19/05 20:16:36 Francis Becigneul-->In the name of safety and courtesy
9/19/05 20:16:40 Jim Borden-->David--Club has already received my feedback about pace and we are going to work with them on correction
9/19/05 20:17:22 Bill Sargent-->k thanks
9/19/05 20:17:27 Jim Borden-->Dave or ***--any observations that either of you would like to make regarding the weekend?
9/19/05 20:17:43 Jim Borden-->Where are Greg and Pete and Jim?
9/19/05 20:17:55 Leon Garfield-->still traveling I think
9/19/05 20:18:30 David NMN Apple-->Jim. I would have liked a more timely match. no inspections other than the weigh in
9/19/05 20:18:35 *** Grosbier-->4 relays was intolerable and kept 50 people for several extra hours for convenience of a couple people shooting 2 guns
9/19/05 20:18:57 Rod Franzius-->I talked with Greg around 5 this afternoon and they were in Kennebunk, Me and there was heavy traffic due to an accident on the turnpike. They were going to detour on Route 1.';
9/19/05 20:19:22 David NMN Apple-->running an ill coordinated match is no reason to penalize a shooter wanting  to shoot two guns
9/19/05 20:19:22 Jim Borden-->Dave--what do you mean by no inspections?
9/19/05 20:19:55 David NMN Apple-->lifting gun from front rest, measuring front stock width.';
9/19/05 20:20:06 Jim Borden-->ah--but adding relays for convenience of a couple of shooters is not ok either--3 relays could have handled things greatly,
9/19/05 20:20:28 *** Grosbier-->easily,
9/19/05 20:20:28 David NMN Apple-->correct.,
9/19/05 20:20:40 Jim Borden-->Dave--I think inspections are fine--keeps people on their toes,
9/19/05 20:20:51 Leon Garfield-->That is the rules check, check, check';
9/19/05 20:20:57 David NMN Apple-->I agree and would like to see them actually take place,
9/19/05 20:21:08 Jim Borden-->We had a problem with range officer pace and the target crew was different each day and had to be trained--that will not happen there again,
9/19/05 20:22:06 Jim Borden-->I was hoping Pete would be here as I was adamant that empty targets not be covered.,
9/19/05 20:22:21 Jim Borden-->in 28 competitive years of shooting I had never crossfired,
9/19/05 20:22:32 David NMN Apple-->welcome to the club  buddy,
9/19/05 20:22:41 *** Grosbier-->Frankly I was surprised they had one of the most experienced range officers around but a unnecessary cease fire was called by mistake.,
9/19/05 20:22:50 Jim Borden-->on Sunday after setting a pace for my 20 year old record for two matches I fired on an empty target next to me,
9/19/05 20:23:01 Jim Borden-->I am sure Pete is wondering if I still feel the same way,
9/19/05 20:23:10 *** Grosbier-->unfortunately I have done same not unnecessary but wrong type,
9/19/05 20:23:24 Jim Borden-->The answer is YES--it was MY responsibility to be on my target,
9/19/05 20:23:32 Francis Becigneul-->right,
9/19/05 20:23:33 Leon Garfield-->I have to run but before I leave I would like to say, Any of the shoots I have been to the rules are LOOSE!!!!!  If rules are to be followed it is something all clubs must do so that people don't stop going to the ones that to enforce them.....
9/19/05 20:23:42 *** Grosbier-->sure wish Pete was here,
9/19/05 20:24:17 Jim Borden-->Leon--I am going to be traveling the score circuit moiré next year and the rules will BE enforced,
9/19/05 20:24:28 Francis Becigneul-->good,
9/19/05 20:24:34 David NMN Apple-->finally,
9/19/05 20:24:49 Jim Borden-->I talked with randy F and Gary L about my concerns and asked them to get the ropes tightened,
9/19/05 20:24:56 Leon Garfield-->We have not done the best at it but we feel if we do we will be shooting alone....Thanks Jim,
9/19/05 20:25:38 Jim Borden-->many that come to your range have expressed to me that they want rules enforced--they will have to get involved at causing them to be enforced,
9/19/05 20:26:07 Jim Borden-->ready to talk rifle rules?,
9/19/05 20:26:15 Francis Becigneul-->Sure,
9/19/05 20:26:17 *** Grosbier-->go to it,
9/19/05 20:26:18 Leon Garfield-->We can do it with no problem, I was the only one at the states that weighed there rifle, Thanks Jim I have to run';
9/19/05 20:26:29 Jim Borden-->thank you Leon,
9/19/05 20:26:38 Bill Sargent-->agree Leon we also need clarification re: what must be enforced and what can be local choice,
9/19/05 20:26:49 *** Grosbier-->I brought certified weights but they were not used,
9/19/05 20:27:02 Jim Borden-->***--why not,
9/19/05 20:27:13 Leon Garfield-->Yes *** they were we set the scale with them
9/19/05 20:27:23 Leon Garfield-->before I weighed my gun
9/19/05 20:27:38 *** Grosbier-->I really cannot answer that Jim I simply informed them I had made them available
9/19/05 20:27:51 Jim Borden-->you mean at Union County?
9/19/05 20:27:58 *** Grosbier-->no Vermont
9/19/05 20:28:30 Jim Borden-->any questions on HV, LV or SP rifles?';
9/19/05 20:28:34 Leon Garfield-->we did use them but didn't see any guns
9/19/05 20:28:45 *** Grosbier-->no organized weighing of rifles was done to my knowledge
9/19/05 20:28:56 Jim Borden-->Jim----you had ? on stocks other night--now is time for it
9/19/05 20:29:11 bob beyer-->I never knew that there were scales in Vt.
9/19/05 20:29:38 Jim Borden-->Jim G --you there?
9/19/05 20:29:41 David NMN Apple-->Jim. how far back from the front of the stock is the width dimension measured?
9/19/05 20:29:47 *** Grosbier-->do other portions of group shooting rules apply to score shooting other than varmint rifle specs
9/19/05 20:29:55 Jim Borden-->anywhere David
9/19/05 20:30:00 JIM GOODY-->HOWDY, is the e-board going to make a ruling on the STOCK CHECKER ISSUE  in the near future';
9/19/05 20:30:02 David NMN Apple-->thank you
9/19/05 20:30:40 Jim Borden-->Jim--actually no--the group committee has the checker--has used it some and will be using it--it works--no decision needed other than that
9/19/05 20:30:47 David NMN Apple-->how can the power of say a 6 power scope be checked ?
9/19/05 20:31:19 JIM GOODY-->why the group comm and not the score comm?
9/19/05 20:31:26 JIM GOODY-->as well
9/19/05 20:31:40 Jim Borden-->David--that is one we have taken for granted for ages--we check to see it is set at 6x and we used to look through each htr rifle scope to ensure it was not boosted
9/19/05 20:31:54 Francis Becigneul-->Yes there does have to be a decision made re: the stock checker. The rule book gives the method for checking the taper of the stock and the checker isn't in the rule book
9/19/05 20:32:13 Jim Borden-->Jim--cause the score committee rep at meeting said --you guys tell us where you come out with it (Gary L)
9/19/05 20:32:36 JIM GOODY-->hmmmmm
9/19/05 20:32:52 Jim Borden-->The checker actually uses the rulebook technique to find the angle
9/19/05 20:33:08 David NMN Apple-->we have a gun around here that has set numerous world records in VH and the owner never had to have it weighed, checked dimensionally in the stock or case and the scope was never verified. HE will tell you this and DOES NOT think it is right';
9/19/05 20:33:17 Francis Becigneul-->Doesn't matter. The rule book says rod guide, rod tape measure.';
9/19/05 20:33:22 JIM GOODY-->it just seems to me that sometime the checker issue will get ugly at a match
9/19/05 20:33:28 frank in the laurels-->wow..it's a luv fest
9/19/05 20:33:40 frank in the laurels-->what a line up
9/19/05 20:34:03 *** Grosbier-->this is the IBS ,

9/19/05 20:34:04 frank in the laurels-->what the fight about tonight !!
9/19/05 20:34:19 Dwayne Garfield-->it got real quiet
9/19/05 20:34:22 Jim Borden-->Francis--show me where it says that--it lays out the angle and gives no procedure in rulebook
9/19/05 20:34:32 Francis Becigneul-->I'm trying to start a fight regarding the use of the stock checker.
9/19/05 20:34:33 frank in the laurels-->rules...what rules..no need, just put holes in the target and be happy';
9/19/05 20:34:56 John Scopelliti',"'I think it would be good to use it as an ""informational device"" on its forst intro.';",
9/19/05 20:35:01 *** Grosbier-->please Frank we are trying to hold a serious discussion here
9/19/05 20:35:07 Jim Borden-->John--that is the intent
9/19/05 20:35:08 frank in the laurels-->ok
9/19/05 20:35:10 Bill Sargent-->Jim would there be a problem with going to a system where the winning guns ie any that get points are checked after the match and save on the trouble of checking everyone?
9/19/05 20:35:16 Admin-->Frank.... Jim Borden is going thru the rule book
9/19/05 20:35:32 Francis Becigneul-->Group shooting rules B. 2
9/19/05 20:35:53 Ron Baldner-->who is frank?
9/19/05 20:36:03 *** Grosbier-->unfortunately Bill that creates its own problem when a person is disqualified after winning
9/19/05 20:36:04 frank in the laurels-->just a idiot
9/19/05 20:36:18 Jim Borden-->Francis--says nothing about how to measure it--only lays out the maximum line or minimum angle
9/19/05 20:36:30 frank in the laurels-->this is way to serious, later';
9/19/05 20:36:37 *** Grosbier-->not a wrong action but creates bad feelings
9/19/05 20:37:05 Jim Borden-->***--I agree--I hate it when rifles are checked after a match has started (after M1)
9/19/05 20:37:39 Bill Sargent-->dg only if you are DQ’d  have the equip available for anyone to check their guns if they want but only measure the winners
9/19/05 20:37:39 JIM GOODY-->Jim has the checker been used at a match and the results of the test made known to the group of reffs?
9/19/05 20:38:11 *** Grosbier-->a shooter is still responsible for his rifle but there are a lot less bad feelings when they get a chance to fix it
9/19/05 20:38:31 Jim Borden-->having a toe formed by a straight line drawn from the toe of a substantially vertical butt with a 13 1/4 inch pull starting at a point at least 4 inches below the axis of the bore and extending forward to the centerline of the barrel at a point no more than 18 inches forward of the boltface
9/19/05 20:39:19 Bill Sargent-->as I said voluntary measure and fix before  if u don't do it and have a problem how can you feel bad
9/19/05 20:39:30 Jim Borden-->above is what rulebook says about stock taper --says nothing on how to measure it and George's fixture measures it--I think we should have two or three--at least one for score committee and one for group committee
9/19/05 20:40:04 Jim Borden-->Francis--what is your concern with the fixture?
9/19/05 20:40:32 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Do the EDGE stocks pass Jim? They have an almost flat butt.. and no taper...
9/19/05 20:40:49 Francis Becigneul-->It was used in Dublin and the rifle could be moved to read whatever angle the ref wanted it to read. It was an NBRSA match.
9/19/05 20:41:20 John Scopelliti-->Different fixture.
9/19/05 20:41:24 Jim Borden-->Keith --yes as long as the barreled action is bedded parallel with top of stock
9/19/05 20:41:27 Francis Becigneul-->Slightly
9/19/05 20:41:45 Francis Becigneul-->John
9/19/05 20:41:58 Jim Borden-->the one I had here worked fine and rifle did not have to be moved to read the accepted angle
9/19/05 20:42:08 Francis Becigneul-->The NBRSA says the rod guide etc. and that is where I am confused.
9/19/05 20:42:16 Jim Borden-->ok
9/19/05 20:43:20 Jim Borden',"'We need to get more people involved in enforcing the rules and being part of the ""fix""';",
9/19/05 20:43:53 Pete Wass-->Folks
9/19/05 20:44:16 Jim Borden',"'when I get involved at match I am hard nose--but on phone or here --it is ""this should be done""--well all of us need to be doing it';",
9/19/05 20:44:18 JIM GOODY-->Match directors have to be on board and make it happen   ,imho';
9/19/05 20:44:29 Jim Borden-->Jim--I agree
9/19/05 20:45:08 JIM GOODY-->as a match director you will follow the rule book or be gone!!!!!!!
9/19/05 20:45:11 Jim Borden-->Pete--? for you--why did you not challenge the individual at Union County who routinely went in front of bench to pick up his rest and bags?
9/19/05 20:45:16 John Scopelliti-->A good idea would be to announce in advance that all stocks would be fixture checked at the match.  Then there is no surprise or confusion.
9/19/05 20:45:48 Pete Wass-->I didn't see him do it Jim.
9/19/05 20:45:56 Francis Becigneul-->And put the fixture in the rule book
9/19/05 20:46:00 Jim Borden-->oh--but I watched you watch him
9/19/05 20:46:11 John Scopelliti-->Good!
9/19/05 20:46:27 Pete Wass-->I have no clue what you are talking about Jim
9/19/05 20:46:55 Jim Borden-->Francis--the fixture does not belong in rulebook anymore tha that we have to use a set of Mitutoyo micrometers to measure stock width--imho
9/19/05 20:47:14 *** Grosbier-->I don't really see the need to spell out what methods can be used to measure compliance with a written rule
9/19/05 20:47:15 Jim Borden-->trying to understand why you think the fixture needs to be in the rulebook
9/19/05 20:47:16 Bill Sargent-->jg agree ALL match directors need to be on board for enforcement to work
9/19/05 20:47:21 Francis Becigneul-->WE have allowed the R.O.s to get lax. WE can put them back on track.
9/19/05 20:47:59 Pete Wass-->How do we measure 6-X scope power ?
9/19/05 20:48:08 Jim Borden-->too late Pete
9/19/05 20:48:21 Jim Borden-->sorry--we talked that one before
9/19/05 20:48:27 Francis Becigneul-->When I saw another's rifle moved around in the fixture, I disliked it immediately. It was not held stable.';
9/19/05 20:49:05 Jim Borden-->then we need to address that issue directly Francis---putting fixture in rulebook will not eliminate your concern
9/19/05 20:49:16 Pete Wass-->Sorry, I was trying to get home!!!!';
9/19/05 20:49:20 Francis Becigneul-->Again, I'm confusing NBRSA and IBS. NBRSA spells out the procedure to measures a stock and the fixture isn't the method.';
9/19/05 20:49:27 Jim Borden-->Pete--I know no ill intent meant
9/19/05 20:49:46 *** Grosbier-->I am sure the transcript will be posted tomorrow Pete
9/19/05 20:49:54 Jim Borden-->IBS has stayed away from how to measure and has placed the limits on the dimensions
9/19/05 20:50:01 Francis Becigneul-->Okay
9/19/05 20:50:05 Francis Becigneul-->Sorry,
9/19/05 20:50:35 Jim Borden-->Francis--we still need to take you r input on stability of rifle in fixture so that it can be used,
9/19/05 20:50:55 Francis Becigneul-->That would be fine with me.,
9/19/05 20:51:33 Jim Borden-->give me a call sometime b4 winter meeting so I can understand the complete concern (rifle damage, measurement instability, etc)';
9/19/05 20:51:42 Francis Becigneul-->Alright,
9/19/05 20:52:07 Jim Borden-->other questions on the rifle rules?,
9/19/05 20:52:21 *** Grosbier-->truthfully I have never heard of a stock being ruled illegal except by too much stock tape mass manufacturing a stock that did not make legal would seem silly,
9/19/05 20:52:35 *** Grosbier-->foolish,
9/19/05 20:52:41 Jim Borden-->right ***,
9/19/05 20:52:55 Francis Becigneul-->I had to take the tape off my Metric stock in Alabama,
9/19/05 20:53:11 bob beyer-->magazine capacity,
9/19/05 20:53:17 Jim Borden-->had some of my fancy painted stocks filed to make rules a few years ago,
9/19/05 20:53:23 *** Grosbier-->and was it illegally wide?,
9/19/05 20:53:25 Jim Borden-->bob--what is ?,
9/19/05 20:53:43 Francis Becigneul-->***. Mine was with the tape on it.,
9/19/05 20:53:51 bob beyer-->how many and how to check it,
9/19/05 20:54:04 nickloy-->***,I have been gone for a while and cannot find you reference to the plug remaing in a score target, could you please tell me were the rule is located .';
9/19/05 20:54:16 Dwayne Garfield-->what is the tol.,
9/19/05 20:54:26 Francis Becigneul-->zero,
9/19/05 20:54:39 Jim Borden',"'8) A magazine shall be capable of holding two or more loaded rounds of ammunition.';"
9/19/05 20:54:52 Jim Borden-->it is checked by stuffing loaded rounds or dummies in it,
9/19/05 20:54:54 Dwayne Garfield-->weight has tol,
9/19/05 20:54:54 *** Grosbier-->Page 19 F2 online rules PDF,
9/19/05 20:55:02 bob beyer-->ty,
9/19/05 20:55:12 David NMN Apple-->I would love to see that enforced,
9/19/05 20:55:12 Francis Becigneul-->That rule should be changed to say two rounds of the ammunition that is being used.,
9/19/05 20:55:20 David NMN Apple-->correct,
9/19/05 20:55:54 Jim Borden-->makes sense Francis--someone should get that written up,
9/19/05 20:56:02 bob beyer-->I know some guns pay no attention to that one,
9/19/05 20:56:02 *** Grosbier-->2 22 rimfires rounds complies with current rule,
9/19/05 20:56:09 Francis Becigneul-->As written, you could put two loaded rounds of 22rimfire.
9/19/05 20:56:20 Francis Becigneul-->Duh,
9/19/05 20:56:28 Jim Borden-->nick--did you find what you were looking for?
9/19/05 20:56:31 Francis Becigneul-->I shall make a note.
9/19/05 20:57:08 *** Grosbier-->does the magazine cut even have to be bigger than a 22 RF
9/19/05 20:57:18 Jim Borden-->Jim Goody as the only member of score committee here tonight-please make a note to follow up on the rewrite of that rule
9/19/05 20:57:26 Francis Becigneul-->Rule doesn't say it does.
9/19/05 20:57:33 JIM GOODY-->ok
9/19/05 20:57:37 Jim Borden-->also--thank you Francis
9/19/05 20:57:54 Francis Becigneul-->You're welcome
9/19/05 20:57:58 nickloy-->Jim, I have not been able to find the rule and could use some help with the rule';
9/19/05 20:58:06 Dwayne Garfield-->I have a brand new book that came today and it doesn't match yours
9/19/05 20:58:13 Jim Borden-->imho (which will get me in trouble like Gator bags) hunter rifles have really strayed from original intent
9/19/05 20:58:28 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--it won't
9/19/05 20:58:57 Francis Becigneul-->Strayed in what way?
9/19/05 20:59:00 Ron Baldner-->I agree Jim, all my hunting rifles have brakes.';
9/19/05 20:59:02 Al Nyhus-->Jim, isn't it correct that a magazine box need not be used as long as there is a magazine cut in the stock?';
9/19/05 20:59:10 David NMN Apple-->the intent is clear. the practice is other wise and heads are turned
9/19/05 20:59:18 *** Grosbier-->IBS allowed custom actions so as not to Handicap NBRSA shooters which is certainly more than NBRSA ever did for the convenience of IBS members';
9/19/05 20:59:25 Pete Wass-->I would agree with you Jim. I think they should be made of Factory actions at the minimum';
9/19/05 20:59:41 *** Grosbier-->that’s an NBSA rule al';
9/19/05 21:00:07 Rod Franzius-->Nick," Section VI) Score Shooting...F. Scoring 2) Scoring plug is to be placed in target by Scorer and not removed until a decision is made......""",
9/19/05 21:00:10 Ron Baldner-->Any custom commercial action is a factory action Pete,
9/19/05 21:00:11 Jim Borden-->we did away with required safety--we did away with required magazine capacity with proven feed from magazine--that quips the stuff you guys just mentioned,
9/19/05 21:00:29 *** Grosbier-->IBS rules say capable of holding two or more loaded rounds,
9/19/05 21:00:53 Pete Wass-->So, by saying that , you allow custom everything
9/19/05 21:00:59 Al Nyhus-->But there doesn't need to be an actual sheet metal magazine box, correct?
9/19/05 21:01:01 Jim Borden-->yes--***--but it does not require the box--it can be a molded magazine in stock,
9/19/05 21:01:08 *** Grosbier-->they do not currently in my opinion require appropriate cal,
9/19/05 21:01:19 Ron Baldner-->no, the key word is commercial
9/19/05 21:01:23 *** Grosbier-->sure,
9/19/05 21:01:50 Pete Wass-->So, everyone's action is commercial. Put a number on it
9/19/05 21:01:50 Jim Borden-->that is where the ability to feed issue came in,
9/19/05 21:02:07 Ron Baldner-->1,
9/19/05 21:02:13 *** Grosbier-->referee used to go around sticking their fingers in magazine checking it I have not seen that done in years,
9/19/05 21:02:16 David NMN Apple-->no hunter gun in use can feed,
9/19/05 21:02:18 Pete Wass-->Say 100 production actions per year,
9/19/05 21:02:24 Jim Borden-->guys-let's slow down
9/19/05 21:02:30 Al Nyhus-->Mine can, David.,
9/19/05 21:02:36 Pete Wass-->My 700 can and will feed
9/19/05 21:02:46 *** Grosbier-->not true David but most cannot
9/19/05 21:02:47 Jim Borden-->point is that hunter guns are not currently what the original intent was
9/19/05 21:03:02 Ron Baldner-->ya no brake
9/19/05 21:03:19 David NMN Apple-->make up your mind ***
9/19/05 21:03:22 Jim Borden-->beyond brakes--Ron
9/19/05 21:03:29 Bill Sargent-->guys,guys,guys, I understand all the stuff you are talking about but could the IBS please create a match director guide that is simple and short that tells us what  MUST be done and what MAY be done to run sanctioned matches.  It hopefully would lead to the consistency we all are searching for.
9/19/05 21:03:53 JIM GOODY-->there is one already
9/19/05 21:04:02 *** Grosbier-->I said nothing inconsistent David
9/19/05 21:04:15 David NMN Apple-->if the match director followed the rules ALREADY in place
9/19/05 21:04:36 Bill Sargent-->jg and it spells out must and may?
9/19/05 21:04:50 JIM GOODY-->good ?
9/19/05 21:05:07 Ron Baldner-->what's up next time Jim?
9/19/05 21:05:44 Jim Borden-->I think score shooting as most here are in that category
9/19/05 21:05:53 Ron Baldner-->cool
9/19/05 21:06:01 Al Nyhus-->//32
9/19/05 21:06:09 Jim Borden-->then Monday--I want to go over rule change procedure