19:58:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" hi all
19:58:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin "-->" I would like to Welcome everyone to the Chat line tonight and Jim you may start anytime your ready.
19:58:24 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" thanks to Stan Ware for allowing this to happen and to Jim Borden for Helping us all out
19:58:37 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" hello Admin
19:58:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" yes thanks Stan and Jim
19:58:59 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" wb Leon
19:59:03 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Better late than never
19:59:13 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius "-->" Leon get an Apple'
19:59:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" no keep getting booted
19:59:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" What I thought we would do is visit why we have rules and begin with the objectives of the IBS
19:59:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" Jim you able to come to VT on the weekend?'
20:00:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Mike
20:00:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Reed--I will not be there--having Kidney zapped on Friday and can not travel for a day or two
20:00:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" wb Mike
20:00:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" My prayers are with you ...
20:01:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Yes indeed from Canada eh...
20:01:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" in the 50s BR was loosely run without any rules pertaining to the rifles-attendance was great at first
20:01:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" As rifles developed and the "iron Monsters" came on the scene attendance dwindled as it became an equipment race'
20:02:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" shoots in the mid 50s had 150 to 200 competitors---by the end of the 50s it was down to less than 20 or so at many matches
20:02:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" The varmint Classes arose out of this mess to get enthusiasm back into the sport and get attendance back up
20:03:29 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" what was the organization called then?
20:03:55 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" so----when many say we after the ultimate in rifle precision and that rules should be bent or modified to allow this or that or to get modern--I can just say--let the rules be changed by the process that is in place that we will review in a future session
20:04:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Paul--it was the NBRSA until 1970
20:04:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" ok
20:05:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Al
20:05:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" I thought we would quickly look at the objectives of the IBS and then move into some highlights from the Tournament procedures section if that is ok with everyone
20:05:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" lets do it
20:05:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" does anyone have any questions about the 4 objectives of the IBS?
20:06:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Sounds like a no
20:06:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" I think they are obvious--but if there are no objections lets move on to Rests
20:06:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" pretty clearly stated
20:07:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Much ado has been made of bags in recent years--but the flavor of the rule is to at least maintain something that looks and feels like a sand bag and limit us to not having return to battery bag guns
20:08:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Is there a weight limit to a rear bag Jim?
20:09:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" I don't see return to battery being much of an issue in score shooting
20:09:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" no weight limit on bags and I have seen some monsters
20:09:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Jim I have a question: could a metal plate be used as a bag's bottom as long as it was encased in leather and not part of the actual 'contents' of the bag?'
20:09:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Al--no
20:09:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" rests #2 Al'
20:09:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" #3
20:10:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Because of the dissimilar materials or the metallic part of the rule Jim?'
20:10:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" right Greg--the sentence says no metal in construction of the bag
20:10:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" hang on for a minute while I bring up the rule book
20:10:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" H 3 covers it
20:11:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" I understand but the rule also says no "dissimilar materials' and we allow cordura and leather.'
20:11:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" Definition of sand Please ?????
20:11:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" No metallic materials may be used in the construction of the sandbag.
20:11:25 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" can a thread be run from side to side to make the sides of the bag stand up rather than bow out?
20:12:25 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Al--not sure where you get the dissimilar materials statement
20:12:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" I don't see any mention of "dissimilar materials"
20:12:45 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" That was in the rules before we allowed Cordura
20:12:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Maybe my rule book is outdated?
20:12:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" If only "sand" can be used what would allow the bottom 1" to be "hard"?
20:13:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow "-->" Jim How hard do they push for the .250inch deflection.
20:13:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" lots of leather
20:13:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Okay...thought I had the current one in hand..I do now. Thanks and sorry.
20:13:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" Al that is not stated in H Rests #3..page 4 of book 4 of 29 in the pdf'
20:13:29 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Paul--that answers the bottom being hard
20:13:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" right
20:14:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Mike--we have not developed a good way to measure the 1/4 inch deflection and it is an area that I think id often not capable of being done
20:14:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Should it be eliminated then ?
20:14:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Also-the 1/4 inch deflection does not mention how hard it has to be pushed
20:15:13 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Pte--in my opinion--it needs an instrument to measure it or be eliminated
20:15:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" That definition is in the NBRSA rule book which of course is a different organization.'
20:15:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow "-->" I thought it might be until the bag slides
20:15:32 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" and it doesn't say whose finger if I was going to be disqualified I would argue that my finger would push it harder than a referees finger
20:15:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" I am curious how we can use the heavy sand that is sold when it is in fact not SAND
20:15:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" not if my thumb is on the other side
20:16:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Leon--why is it not sand?
20:16:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" That part of the rule should be eliminated for lack of an enforcement method
20:16:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" IT is a sand that has been weighted by some substance some where to get the weight
20:16:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" I argued with the rewrite of the bag rule because all sand materials are "metallic"
20:17:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Leion--heavy sand is ground stone or base material--it just happens to be heavier than silica sand
20:17:36 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" OK
20:18:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" Leon heavy sand is zirconium silicate...the zirconium gives it the extra weight'
20:18:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" silica sand is in the metals family as is chrome and zircon and the many other materials that make up foundry sand
20:18:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" thanks Greg
20:18:23 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" Sand from Dictionary.com ....
20:18:36 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" thanks ***
20:19:03 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" the metallic thing was put in rules as some used to put steel shot in their bags
20:19:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" Guess if it isn't attracted to a magnet it must be sand
20:19:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" there is some metallic substances in trace amounts in all sand
20:19:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" so lead graduals would be ok ? lead is in it's natural state Rock'
20:19:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" reed--not necessarily so----there are magnetic metals and non-magnetic metals--and as I said silica is in the metals side of the chart
20:19:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" no Pete lead is a metal on the periodic table'
20:20:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" now needless to say we are not going to biopsy bags to check right
20:20:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" But it comes from rock
20:20:34 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins "-->" Why must people push the riles
20:20:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" right Bill---if we wrote the rules to cover every detail it would look like a law library--
20:20:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Ill let it go Greg
20:20:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" they are trying to gain an edge
20:20:58 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" moving right along...
20:21:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" not pushing James just clarifying
20:21:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" So if it doesn't matter how much it weighs or how big it is what's in it really isn't all that important'
20:21:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" James--it seems that when rules exist -people find a reason to push them
20:21:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" if I had my way--the big gator bags would not be used--just MHO
20:22:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" can we move to stocks?
20:22:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" sure Jim
20:22:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" I had a question
20:22:24 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins "-->" Why Jim Gator bags
20:22:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Have we clarified the bags?
20:22:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" If the rules gave a specification for the type of sand to be used there wouldn't be questions or people trying to gain an edge'
20:22:38 CDT 9/5/2005 John Scopelliti "-->" Jim. I sometimes see guys moistening the bottom of their bag when shooting off a painted surface. Legal?
20:22:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" John--yes
20:22:56 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Ron Baldner had a ? re: side stitching I believe?'
20:22:58 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Ron--what was your ?
20:23:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" Can a string be run from one side of the bag to the other to pull the sides up straight so they do not bow out?
20:24:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" string where?
20:24:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" side to side
20:24:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" through the bag
20:24:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" right through the bag with a button on each side
20:24:45 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" I do not see anything preventing that--anyone else care to comment?
20:24:57 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Me either
20:25:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" me either
20:25:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Seems like it would be legal to me.
20:25:07 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" attachment?
20:25:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" sounds legal
20:25:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" wouldn't you be adding to the bag
20:25:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Just add sand
20:25:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" I was required to cut mine off at an HBR Nationals in Raton 15 min before the first relay.'
20:26:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Aren't the ears effectively an attachment?
20:26:02 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" containment?
20:26:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" What was the reason given?
20:26:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Because of the button?
20:26:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" adding sand makes it bow out more and it and I bow out in the same area.
20:26:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" where are you guys getting the "attachment" word in the bag rules
20:26:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" Nothing against "additions" to the bag that I can see. Containment IMHO would be from the outside'
20:26:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" metallic buttons?
20:26:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" buttons made of anter
20:27:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" antler
20:27:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Sue - - -
20:27:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" I think containment to be boxed in...
20:27:22 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" I am wrong I thought there was something in bag section
20:27:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" the bag rule was clarified a couple of years ago to define attachment---specifically containers for windage and elevation
20:27:37 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" I have seen that at local club matches not registered
20:27:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" I would agree from the outside but definition isn't specific'
20:28:07 CDT 9/5/2005 bbeyer "-->" use leather discs not buttons'
20:28:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" I think it would be fine. IT will not keep the bag from moving and I believe that is what the containment is for. IT will just hold the bag up so it don't sag
20:28:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" the broader the definition the broader the range of interpretations that we can expect'
20:28:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" how do you keep the sand from falling out?
20:28:40 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins "-->" Jim Why Do you not think the gator bags are OK
20:28:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" glue the string openings?
20:28:56 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins "-->" Oops Not OK
20:29:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" just do not believe they meet the intent of the sand bag rule--mud own opinion --not that of rule enforcement
20:29:45 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" pleas bear with me with the typing--my fingers get mixed up
20:29:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" Stocks......................
20:29:57 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin "-->" No more questions.... we can move on
20:30:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius "-->" How do they not meet them?
20:30:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" before stocks--is there anything in the tournament procedures section that anyone would like to address
20:30:36 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" drawing for benches at local matches
20:30:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Yes the hanging of targets where there are no competitors'
20:30:58 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" David--what is your ?
20:31:14 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" what recourse does the shooter have if the club does not draw for benches?
20:31:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Shoot under protest...
20:31:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" you can protest to the referees--if they do nothing--then you can use the formal protest procedure to file a protest with the governing committee
20:32:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" section III.J
20:32:31 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" thank you. we are trying to move away from the good ole boy way of doing things. that clarification helps Jim.
20:32:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" now Pete--what is your specific ? on hanging targets
20:32:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" What is the current book just so I'm on the same page here Jim?'
20:32:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" #11
20:33:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Current book is on IBS site #11.b
20:33:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Section M 1. c.'
20:33:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" are your books different from mine we have jumped a long ways'
20:33:39 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" download here http://www.international-benchrest.com/downloads.shtml
20:33:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" OK I was in 10 now in 11... thanks'
20:33:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" that's what I got ***
20:33:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Got both
20:33:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" PDF
20:34:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" we have just gone from definitions H. 3)... TOOO????
20:34:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" It appears to me that targets are not to be hung where there is no competitor
20:34:25 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" updated to 28 March 9/5/2005
20:34:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" The old Idea of crossfires being equal are not in the rules
20:34:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Perte --not true---read that rule very carefully--it is a recommendation --not a rule
20:34:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" where does it say that Pete
20:35:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" that is a CUSTOM not a rule
20:35:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Herein lies lots of the problems in the rules Jim.
20:35:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Paul--where would you like to go
20:35:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" ?
20:35:36 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Pete--it is not a problem--it is plain English
20:35:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" HELL I DON'T KNOW WHERE WE HAVE GONE///
20:35:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" Oops caps got locked
20:36:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" guys--lets slow down and take this a step at a time
20:36:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" Paul pages 10-11 right now'
20:36:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Recommendations and rules are not complimentary in my opinion. Rules are suppose to be hard and fast'
20:36:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" so from 4 to 11 ok???
20:36:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" with the finding of help to run shoots why cant a range officer participate in a shoot as long as he is not running the relay he is shooting
20:36:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" it is ok to have recommendations in a rule book--it just means that it is the clubs discretion for that item
20:37:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" leon--he can as long as it is not a championship
20:37:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius "-->" Sh
"-->"
20:37:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" I don't think there should be ant discretion at all just rules'
20:37:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" meaning anything with the word championship in the name of the shoot
20:37:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" national?
20:37:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius "-->" The recommendation that is
20:37:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Pete--the rule is: it is recommended that empty benches not have targets hung
20:37:50 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" Gentlemen Please note Pages in the downloaded PDF are not always same as printed book so it is best to refer to sections
20:38:01 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" sections
20:38:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Championships as far as IBS goes are clearly identified--County State regional Championships do not exist. Look at listing of what is recognized as Championship by IBS'
20:38:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Why doesn't it simply say there will not be any targets hung where there are no competitors ?
20:39:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius "-->" M. 1) c ...and to avoid preparing target for inactive benches.'
20:39:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" because that is not the way the members that formed the rule wanted it
20:39:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" IC
20:39:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin "-->" A good way may be to give page # and section when asking a question
20:40:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Intent was to make it just as easy for you off by yourself to x-fire as someone with a guy on either side...
20:40:26 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" right Keith
20:40:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" I've never seen that in writing
20:40:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" pw so us guys don't have figure out how to tell our no existent target hangers how to only hang some targets rather then all
20:40:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Pete--also note it says that unoccupied benches are not to be occupied
20:40:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Then why aren't there targets hung beside 1 and the last Keith
20:41:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Pete--lets keep tis taional
20:41:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" rational
20:41:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" I see that. And its up to the [person running the line to make sure it doesn't happen Eh ?'
20:42:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" it is the competitors job to know where he is and when he needs to be shooting and on what target--it is not the organizations responsibility
20:42:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Agreed Jim.'
20:42:25 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" correct. accept responsibility for your actions
20:42:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" thanks Jim
20:42:32 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" I know in this world of litigation--that is hard for prolle to accept-but it is the way it is
20:42:37 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" know where you're shooting
20:42:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" I can buy that
20:42:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" No need for outcome based shooting IMO.'
20:43:13 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Outcome Based Al?
20:43:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" any other questions on the Tournament procedure section before we move to safety
20:44:02 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" according to the rule M.c. in the last sentence it says to avoid preparing target for inactive benches
20:44:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Yes. Back up to Inspection of equipment
20:44:15 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" other than the nats. when should guns be weighed. what else should be checked?
20:44:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" one could take that to mean not needed
20:44:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" good one Francis
20:44:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Define scale
20:44:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" There are some who take this to mean balance beam
20:44:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Electronic or beam mandatory?
20:44:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" our rules say all equipment is to be inspected--when I started shooting BR all guns were weighed at every shoot and that was intent of rules
20:45:19 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" what happened??? democrats???
20:45:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" took too much time?
20:45:58 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" scale section needs work--it was revised to take out words balance beam--but two of the sentences still refer to pointer and leveling
20:46:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" mnoy enough help?
20:46:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" The wording of the scale rule was before the advent of digital scales.
20:46:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" I still believe weighing is important--you would not believe how many overweight guns I get to see as a gunsmith
20:46:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Ok Jim. I am not interested in a tutorial. I would prefer to discuss the rules fully and get some differing points off view. I will watch Hank Parker catch bass instead
20:47:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" what is a legal scale?????
20:47:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass "-->" Niteall
20:47:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Jim rules clarification is a tutorial.'
20:47:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" so soon Pete?
20:47:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" that is fine Pete--as I am not going to spend my time debating the rules--I am doing this to help
20:47:57 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" good job Jim
20:47:59 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Please continue Jim. We really appreciate your time on this believe me.'
20:48:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" So. In this electronic age a digital scale and certified weights is legal?
20:48:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" my newest print is about done I printed a copy last week I still cant find where this is or was
20:48:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" So if weighing someone's gun and it comes in overweight and they claim it is in weight what then
20:48:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" let me rephrase the above--I am more than willing to discuss differing viewpoints on rules--I just am not into the what if game
20:49:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin "-->" Jim as you move along would you give page #
20:49:16 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" thank you. lets keep moving
20:49:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" I understand
20:49:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Francis--yes the exec board ha ruled that it is and we need to coordinate getting rewritten rule updated
20:49:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY "-->" this should not be a what if deal imho
20:49:59 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" I can deal with section paragraph nad subparagraph number sbetter'
20:50:16 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" is a check weight adequate?
20:50:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" right jg
20:50:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" right now we are at III.I
20:50:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" what is a check weight Dave
20:50:52 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" something to check a digital or balance beam scale
20:51:02 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" verify reading
20:51:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" as long as it is a certified weight from a weigh master
20:51:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" The rules state official weight and Certified Master weight.
20:51:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" Jim where can a club get certified weights?'
20:51:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" can the IBS provide them? cost?
20:51:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" they can have them made at a machine shop and have them verified by a state weigh master--guy green used to do that for us
20:52:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" If that club is also NBRSA they can get them from the org. for a fee.'
20:52:30 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" IBS is looking at having them made so each club can purchase--at one time all clubs had them--I believe either Clyde or Bob Hart made them
20:52:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" JB we really should be weighing guns in our local matches?
20:52:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" without certified weights are scales essentially useless?
20:52:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" BIll-absolutely
20:53:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Greg--pretty much so
20:53:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" hey aren't legal
20:53:16 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" who is in charge of weighing at a match Jim?
20:53:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" referees
20:53:30 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" thanks
20:53:37 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman "-->" that is something IBS could do for member clubs...take a poll and find out how many cert. weights are wanted and then contract for them somewhere?
20:53:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Greg--yes
20:54:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Greg--please email that as a reminder
20:54:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Commence Fire... more than once I have run a line and there is someone that fires on the word "Fire". Is he pushing me or the rule here? I always just smile at him we need the numbers :)'
20:54:33 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" Excellent Idea!
20:54:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" or better yet--*** would you be willing to be scribe and keep a follow up list for me
20:54:55 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" I will try
20:55:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" yes he is Keith because he can not have a round in until the commence command
20:55:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Keith--if they fire at fire--then they had a round in the gun and that is not legal
20:55:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Thanks for rte clarification Jim...
20:55:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" gb jb not only do we have to weigh it has to be done with a certified scale?
20:56:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" scale with certified weights--no big deal Bill
20:56:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" No. Scale and certified weight
20:56:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Okay
20:56:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" k
20:56:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" the old balance beam scales work well
20:56:58 CDT 9/5/2005 bbeyer "-->" does each club have a scale?
20:57:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield "-->" If IBS wants us to weigh them they should provide them
20:57:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" the ruling on accuracy of scale is one ounce?
20:57:10 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier "-->" NO
20:57:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" no leon
20:57:29 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield "-->" In our modern world I opt for letting us use postal-type digital scales with a checkweight'
20:57:32 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" one ounce is allowed
20:57:55 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" reed---digital with certified master weight
20:57:56 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow "-->" I was able to get mine at a big Ohas dealer
20:58:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" do nort set up the digital scale outdoors or in the wind--they float
20:58:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" 5) In Tournament where the dimension factor is involved the Host Club shall provide an accurate scale a steel rule and a pair of calipers or micrometer having a maximum capacity in excess of 1.25". In weighing rifles with scope attached an excess of one ounce shall be attributed to scale error.'
20:58:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" I. 5) micrometer capable of at least 1.25" how is a barrel measured while on the gun and under a scope?
20:58:55 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow "-->" They are not cheap
20:59:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" paul--mighty difficult and not practical
20:59:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) "-->" Oops
20:59:28 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" can we go back to protests?
20:59:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike "-->" exactly
20:59:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Dave--yes--what is the ?
20:59:56 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" section J 2.
21:00:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" we are now on III.j
21:00:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" dave--what is your ?
21:00:26 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" if a shooter wants to protest does he just let the match director know and mail the protest to the exec comm?
21:00:42 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" or give the protest to the match director and hope the director deals with it
21:01:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" no--he make sout protest at match --pays the fee and gives it to range officer--the range officer mails it to appropriate committee
21:01:22 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" it appears both hare necessary
21:01:32 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" ok
21:01:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" it works--I have done it and so have others
21:01:42 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" thank you
21:02:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" This has been good.
21:02:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Yes...lots of clarification on many issues.
21:02:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" on Wednesday we will start with safety section--section IV
21:02:57 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple "-->" unprecedented by our President. Thanks Jim
21:03:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" Thanks again for your time Jim.'
21:03:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Halldor Nikulasson "-->" Thanks for a good job Jim!!'
21:03:01 CDT 9/5/2005 John Scopelliti "-->" Thanks Jim'
21:03:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" Jim--hang on to the stock ? as we will get to it when we get to equipment
21:03:13 CDT 9/5/2005 JIM GOODY "-->" thanks
21:03:14 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins "-->" Thanks Jim
21:03:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin "-->" Thanks Jim.... good for everyone
21:03:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus "-->" And thanks to Stan Ware for providing a forum like this.
21:03:25 CDT 9/5/2005 JIM GOODY "-->" ok
21:03:26 CDT 9/5/2005 bbeyer "-->" thanks jim
21:03:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner "-->" Happy Trails all. Thanks Jim
21:03:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Joe Woosman "-->" Thanks Jim nite all.'
21:03:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" you are welcome--see ya Wednesday
21:03:58 CDT 9/5/2005 greg palman "-->" night
21:04:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul "-->" Good Job Jim'
21:04:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" thanks francis
21:04:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow "-->" Thanks Jim & Stan this has been the best thing I have seen on the com. for a while
21:04:57 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent "-->" thanks jim come on up to VT some time
21:05:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin "-->" Welcom Mike.... I hope Jims fingers heal by Wed. ?
21:05:26 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" bill--i am planning on making it next year--finally have a score gun again
21:05:47 CDT 9/5/2005 greg palman "-->" cu folks...thanks jim for your time
21:06:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden "-->" thanks all--going to bed--south africans will be here early in morning