September 2005 - Posts

• IBS Rule Book Chat - Transcript 5

  9/26/2005 20:04:26--  Jim Borden --> hi all, 9/26/2005 20:04:29--  Al Nyhus --> Hi Jim., 9/26/2005 20:04:43--  Bill Sargent --> well if u guys want to go with that theory than just spend the bucks and the hell with science, 9/26/2005 20:04:49--  Leon Garfield --> there is not a scale around that is calibrated with exact weight, 9/26/2005 20:04:56--  *** Grosbier --> Rod Franzius made it, 9/26/2005 20:05:10--  Butch Randall --> evening Jim 9/26/2005 20:05:16--  JIM GOODY --> hi 9/26/2005 20:05:52--  Leon Garfield --> HI Dan long time no see 9/26/2005 20:05:59--  Dan Hackett --> Howdy. 9/26/2005 20:06:11--  Bill Sargent --> don't fool yourself thinking that the accuracy of the weights have anything to do with it compared to the accuracy of the scale 9/26/2005 20:06:36--  JIM GOODY --> how much $  ? 9/26/2005 20:07:27--  Bill Sargent --> under 100 for a single weight at around 12lbs(1/2 between 10.5 and 13.5) to use as a check weight 9/26/2005 20:07:36--  *** Grosbier --> Problem is Bill we are only concerned with 10, 10.5 and 13.5 pounds 9/26/2005 20:07:58--  Bill Sargent --> dg check weight 9/26/2005 20:08:19--  Al Nyhus --> In my travels, my rifles always weigh the same when weighed on digital scales at what ever range I'm at. When my stuff is weighed on balance beam scales, there is considerable amount of variance at different ranges. 9/26/2005 20:08:59--  Jim Borden --> the 10, 10.5 and 13.5 # weights are only actually required when a balance beam is used. 9/26/2005 20:09:03--  Bill Sargent --> their pro i.e. major scale comp engineer says anything else is not nec with today’s technology 9/26/2005 20:09:16--  Al Nyhus --> No ore than .25 oz variance on digitals...up to 4 oz. variance from beam scales. 9/26/2005 20:09:31--  Jim Borden --> a check weight will work to set platform or digital scales 9/26/2005 20:09:45--  Leon Garfield --> Its a good thing you guys don't see how this country is calibrated 9/26/2005 20:09:52--  *** Grosbier --> ok 9/26/2005 20:10:19--  Leon Garfield --> what’s the topic tonight JIM 9/26/2005 20:10:29--  JIM GOODY --> the weather 9/26/2005 20:10:36--  Bill Sargent --> exactly al their pro laughed about thought that balance was more accurate than dig 9/26/2005 20:10:37--  Dan Hackett',"""-->""","'I've seen clubs use some pretty weird ""check weights.""  There's one in this area that uses a bag of sand....", 9/26/2005 20:10:52--  Jim Borden --> score section---Section VII 9/26/2005 20:11:29--  Jim Borden --> are we all ready to enter Section Vii? 9/26/2005 20:11:35--  Leon Garfield --> Yes 9/26/2005 20:11:37--  Al Nyhus --> We're ready, Jim. 9/26/2005 20:11:44--  Ron Baldner --> yes 9/26/2005 20:12:12--  Bill Sargent --> well any way I can get certified single weight at around 12 lbs that is what a major international scale comp says to do for under 100 9/26/2005 20:12:29--  Bill Sargent --> sorry jim 9/26/2005 20:12:40--  Jim Borden --> Bill--I agree with you if you are using digital or platform scale 9/26/2005 20:12:49--  Bill Sargent --> tx 9/26/2005 20:13:47--  Jim Borden --> using the rulebook as a guide--anyone got any ?'s about the score shooting purpose section? 9/26/2005 20:13:59--  Bill Sargent --> not me just going by what pro tells me  I don't know scale from sail 9/26/2005 20:14:51--  Jim Borden --> Ok--no ?'s there--any questions about classifications? 9/26/2005 20:14:58--  Dan Hackett --> Am I the only one who has noticed the HBR rules do not mention a magazine cutout in the receiver or say the rifle must have a magazine? 9/26/2005 20:15:20--  *** Grosbier --> wrong rules Dan 9/26/2005 20:15:25--  Jim Borden --> no Dan--in fact that was discussed the other night in a casual chat 9/26/2005 20:15:58--  Dan Hackett --> Better take another look at the rule book that's available for download, ***. 9/26/2005 20:16:05--  Ron Baldner --> What is the magazine rule? 9/26/2005 20:16:30--  Jim Borden',"""-->""","'8) A magazine shall be capable of holding two or more loaded rounds of ammunition.",, 9/26/2005 20:16:44--  *** Grosbier --> Page 18 of the download version 9/26/2005 20:16:46--  Ron Baldner --> Any ammo? 9/26/2005 20:16:49--  Jim Borden --> That is an area that definitely needs to be rewritten 9/26/2005 20:17:05--  Dan Hackett --> That defines what the magazine must do, Jim.  There's nothing that says the rifle must have one, and there's no mention of a magazine cutout. 9/26/2005 20:17:08--  Jim Borden --> Ron--the rule as written does not specify 9/26/2005 20:17:27--  Jim Borden --> Dan--I guess I agree with you--I said nothing different 9/26/2005 20:17:40--  *** Grosbier --> Interesting point 9/26/2005 20:17:42--  Dan Hackett --> Right.  I'm just clarifying what I thought it said. 9/26/2005 20:17:49--  Ron Baldner --> As long as I cut slots for .22 cal shorts, that is legal? 9/26/2005 20:18:00--  Al Nyhus --> There is nothing that specifies the action being a repeater. 9/26/2005 20:18:04--  Jim Borden --> I also said it needs to be rewritten, 9/26/2005 20:18:06--  Dan Hackett --> Right, Al. 9/26/2005 20:18:30--  Ron Baldner --> I don't think so., 9/26/2005 20:18:43--  Dan Hackett --> This is one area where the NBRSA book is clearer -- that's unusual, to say the least.  :-) 9/26/2005 20:18:54--  Jim Borden --> Al--that is correct--major problem with the rewrite that was done when the paragraph was changed that said  the magazine had to hold rounds and feed them, 9/26/2005 20:20:53--  Jim Borden --> This is a rather touchy area for me--I know what the original rules said--I was there when the rule was changed and know the intent--yet the wording sure does not convey what was intended---I have already passed this one along as a recommendation for rewrite, 9/26/2005 20:20:56--  Al Nyhus --> I had noticed that omission for some time now...everyone knows the spirit of the rule, so I never made mention of it...or showed up with a single shot Kodiak.//26 9/26/2005 20:21:02--  Dan Hackett --> Jim, is there any chance of the IBS magazine rule being brought into line with NBRSA?  (I.e., magazine cutout required, but no requirement for functional magazine?) 9/26/2005 20:21:10--  david j. halblom sr. --> full house!, 9/26/2005 20:21:40--  Jim Borden --> Dan--that is up to the membership when they vote on the changed wording, 9/26/2005 20:22:11--  Joe Woosman --> What's the point of a cutout if it doesn't need to function?, 9/26/2005 20:22:26--  Dan Hackett --> The idea is to make the action more flexible, Joe. 9/26/2005 20:22:32--  Jim Borden --> In my personal opinion it would need to go beyond what the NBRSA rule says----the hunter rifles are no where near what was originally intended, 9/26/2005 20:22:40--  *** Grosbier --> stiffness more similar to a hunting rifle, 9/26/2005 20:22:42--  david j. halblom sr. --> as well as the stock more flexible, 9/26/2005 20:22:48--  Al Nyhus --> Very true, Jim. 9/26/2005 20:23:08--  Jim Borden --> I would like to see it go back to hold and feed loaded rounds of the cartridge that is being fired, 9/26/2005 20:23:22--  David NMN Apple --> correct. original intent, 9/26/2005 20:23:27--  Joe Woosman --> Why was it changed Jim?, 9/26/2005 20:23:32--  david j. halblom sr. --> I would point out that none of the Varmint classes are what they started out as either, 9/26/2005 20:23:35--  Jim Borden --> otherwise--just make the rifle a 10 pound version of an LV, 9/26/2005 20:23:55--  *** Grosbier --> cause rem 700 won't usually feed a ppc, 9/26/2005 20:24:12--  Jim Borden --> It was changed because they wanted to away with the shall feed protion--that is when the paragraph got butchered, 9/26/2005 20:24:15--  David NMN Apple --> harren has them, 9/26/2005 20:24:19--  Dan Hackett --> Before the new rules were passed in NBRSA, everyone was cheating on the magazine rule, and counting on the fact that magazines were never checked.  The rules change legitimized common practice, then IBS more or less went along with what NBRSA was doing. 9/26/2005 20:25:35--  Dan Hackett --> There's been very little change in the varmint class rules for at least 30-35 years,,, 9/26/2005 20:25:59--  David NMN Apple --> original intent, 9/26/2005 20:26:04--  david j. halblom sr. --> But the rifles are NOT anything like real world, 9/26/2005 20:26:25--  Al Nyhus --> The main thing you need is the ability for a HBR rifle to easily conform to  the rules of both the IBS and the NBRSA, IMO. 9/26/2005 20:26:42--  David NMN Apple --> original intent was a hunting rifle platform. a full race BAT is not, 9/26/2005 20:26:59--  david j. halblom sr. --> Since the IBS is reciprocal, NBRSA works there 9/26/2005 20:27:27--  Jim Borden --> has anyone also noticed that the hunter stocks do not have a butt section taper requirement/ 9/26/2005 20:27:36--  Al Nyhus --> Yes..... 9/26/2005 20:27:43--  Dan Hackett --> NO, Dave A.  From the very beginning, custom rifles were expected.  HBR guns still used factory actions until 1999. 9/26/2005 20:27:53--  david j. halblom sr.',"""-->""","'HBR has  not been a ""hunting"" rifle for as long as Varmint has not ", at least 9/26/2005 20:27:56--  *** Grosbier --> I believe an NBRSA rifle must still meet IBS rules to be allowed is that not true Jim 9/26/2005 20:27:57--  Jim Borden --> David--that is not correct--we do not accept whatever NBRSA accepts---- 9/26/2005 20:28:24--  Jim Borden --> ***--you stated it better 9/26/2005 20:28:25--  *** Grosbier --> we accept their card 9/26/2005 20:28:36--  Dan Hackett --> Yes, Jim.  Other than the forearm width requirement, HBR stock requirements are more or less nonexistent. 9/26/2005 20:28:40--  david j. halblom sr. --> In other words, my non-functional magazine is not legal? 9/26/2005 20:28:58--  Dan Hackett --> It's illegal if you enter the match with an IBS card, Dave. 9/26/2005 20:29:06--  Pat Cameron --> Hello all 20 people 9/26/2005 20:29:10--  david j. halblom sr. --> Not the question Dan 9/26/2005 20:29:21--  *** Grosbier --> It doesn't have to function but must hold 2 rounds 9/26/2005 20:29:24--  Jim Borden --> david--the IBS does not require a functional magazine--it just must hold two or more rounds of ammo 9/26/2005 20:29:25--  Francis Becigneul --> Yes David. as written you are legal, 9/26/2005 20:29:26--  Al Nyhus --> Pat., 9/26/2005 20:29:53--  david j. halblom sr. --> Also not the question Francis, 9/26/2005 20:29:55--  Jim Borden --> dan--if a rifle is illegal in IBS it does not matter what card you use to enter the match, 9/26/2005 20:30:03--  david j. halblom sr.',"""-->""","'Define ""hold""",,, 9/26/2005 20:30:11--  *** Grosbier --> apparently 2 22rf as it stands but that is not the intent, 9/26/2005 20:30:39--  Dan Hackett --> Another question is," what is meant by ""holding two rounds of ammunition.""  Does that mean it must accept rounds loaded through the receiver", or just that there must be enough space for two rounds to fit? 9/26/2005 20:30:48--  Frank in the Laurels --> good evening, 9/26/2005 20:31:25--  Jim Borden --> dan--as written it is not clear----I think we all know the intent--but it is not written that way, 9/26/2005 20:31:40--  Al Nyhus --> Jim, it seems a simple rewording is in order to clarify the rules on magazine and action is all that's needed. 9/26/2005 20:31:51--  *** Grosbier --> Frank we are discussing IBS rules again, 9/26/2005 20:32:00--  david j. halblom sr. --> Jim, I must ask that intent 9/26/2005 20:32:10--  Dan Hackett --> Jim, as I understand it, it has been the practice to accept NBRSA-legal rifles to be used by NBRSA members at IBS matches, even if the rifle doesn't meet IBS rules. 9/26/2005 20:32:20--  Jim Borden --> correct AL--I am hoping that the score committee coordinates getting the reword complete to be submitted for 2007 agenda, 9/26/2005 20:32:35--  Jim Borden --> Dan--that was only true for a couple of years, 9/26/2005 20:32:50--  Jim Borden --> That turned into a nightmare, 9/26/2005 20:33:23--  *** Grosbier --> and led to custom actions in IBS 9/26/2005 20:33:44--  Al Nyhus --> If you want to open a can of worms...compare the IBS and NBRSA HBR barrel profiles.8-o EEEKKK![-D 9/26/2005 20:33:47--  david j. halblom sr. --> And there is a problem w/ custom actions? 9/26/2005 20:34:01--  Jim Borden --> I could never understand why it was okay for NBRSA shooter to have a custom action and an IBS shooter could not---as *** said that led to approving custom actions for IBS and the membership thing went by the wayside 9/26/2005 20:34:45--  david j. halblom sr. --> Al, compare stock dimensions.  Just as bad 9/26/2005 20:34:46--  *** Grosbier --> IBS was actually allowing NBRSA members to use equipment IBS members were not allowed to use 9/26/2005 20:35:20--  Jim Borden --> david--the conservative ones amongst us finally said the heck with it and the custom action ruling was made 9/26/2005 20:35:33--  *** Grosbier --> thus causing IBS members to Join NBRSA 9/26/2005 20:35:47--  david j. halblom sr. --> Yes, and all for the better as well. 9/26/2005 20:35:47--  mike ricklefs --> a mag follower blocked, 9/26/2005 20:36:06--  david j. halblom sr. --> Hey J.G. 9/26/2005 20:36:43--  Al Nyhus --> Those of us competing in both the NBRSA and IBS tournaments must build hybrid HBR rifles....NBRSA barrel profiles and IBS magazines. 9/26/2005 20:36:46--  Leon Garfield --> Jim question on bench rotation 9/26/2005 20:36:51--  Jim Borden --> Mike--I have no further comments on the magazine rule--it is poorly written and that is all there is to it.  If folks want to play with it and go where the intent was not--I guess it is open game until the rewrite is done 9/26/2005 20:37:13--  Jim Borden --> Leon--what is ? 9/26/2005 20:37:42--  Leon Garfield --> Does a club have to have a bench rotation at any shoots other than Nationals,, 9/26/2005 20:37:53--  Jim Borden --> yes----brb,, 9/26/2005 20:38:20--  Jim Borden',"""-->""","'3)  Rotation of a prespecified number of benches after each individual match shall be used at IBS Championship Tournaments. Some form of bench rotation will be used at Grand Aggregate Tournaments. The type of rotation will be at the discretion of the Host Club. Stationary backers will be used at all Grand Aggregate Tournaments.",,,, 9/26/2005 20:38:34--  Leon Garfield --> Ok so grand agg only,, 9/26/2005 20:38:41--  *** Grosbier --> right,, 9/26/2005 20:38:42--  Jim Borden --> yes,, 9/26/2005 20:38:47--  Leon Garfield --> thank you,, 9/26/2005 20:39:03--  david j. halblom sr. --> Is that why the clubs in the east do not shoot aggs?,, 9/26/2005 20:39:04--  Jim Borden --> I am one of the few that favors bench rotation at all matches,, 9/26/2005 20:39:16--  *** Grosbier --> and full rotation can be used at any match but is only required at Nationals,, 9/26/2005 20:39:19--  Jim Borden --> clubs in east do shoot aggs,, 9/26/2005 20:39:25--  david j. halblom sr. --> Add me to that list jIM,, 9/26/2005 20:39:28--  Jim Borden --> they also shoot grand aggs,, 9/26/2005 20:39:30--  Leon Garfield --> I have not trouble with it just wanted to know for sure when it was NEEDED,, 9/26/2005 20:39:41--  David NMN Apple --> Jim, section D 1 2 requires a ten minute match. some clubs use a 7 minute match. if a record is shot in a 7 minute match is it legal?, 9/26/2005 20:39:45--  Dan Hackett --> So, Jim, there must be at least rotation between yardages, even at a one-day, two-yardage shoot? 9/26/2005 20:39:50--  david j. halblom sr. --> Sorry, Grand Aggs 9/26/2005 20:39:58--  Jim Borden --> if you have a range that has widely varying conditions across it--I think it wise to rotate 9/26/2005 20:40:16--  Dan Hackett --> Jim, I agree with that. 9/26/2005 20:40:19--  Leon Garfield --> we have used yardage rotation at our grand aggs 9/26/2005 20:40:26--  Jim Borden --> *** probably has a better feel that I--but there were a  number of weekend grand agg matches this year 9/26/2005 20:40:27--  *** Grosbier --> you mean Full rotation? 9/26/2005 20:40:56--  Jim Borden --> leon--I would prefer match rotation if you have widely varying conditions 9/26/2005 20:41:05--  Jim Borden --> I mean full rotation 9/26/2005 20:41:10--  *** Grosbier --> Full rotation is definitely fairer but a lot of work 9/26/2005 20:41:10--  david j. halblom sr. --> Iowa ALWAYS shoots grand aggs.  Are you saying rotation is MANDATORY then? 9/26/2005 20:41:21--  *** Grosbier --> sure 9/26/2005 20:41:24--  Jim Borden --> David--that is what the rule says 9/26/2005 20:41:32--  Jim Borden --> it may be agg rotation 9/26/2005 20:41:42--  david j. halblom sr. --> Just asking clarification 9/26/2005 20:41:49--  Jim Borden --> stationarys are also required 9/26/2005 20:42:12--  Jim Borden --> it may also be full rotation--club choice 9/26/2005 20:42:14--  Leon Garfield --> Right done that, 9/26/2005 20:42:17--  *** Grosbier --> stationary backers are required also which I doubt a lot of clubs are using, 9/26/2005 20:42:19--  david j. halblom sr.',"""-->""","'I happen to agree.  But that is not ""customary"" practice",,, 9/26/2005 20:42:27--  *** Grosbier --> with Grand Agg, 9/26/2005 20:42:51--  Dan Hackett --> Stationaries are a good idea -- they help track down crossfires., 9/26/2005 20:42:52--  Jim Borden --> then customary practice better get in line--who does the info need to be passed along to?, 9/26/2005 20:43:16--  JIM GOODY --> THE MATCH DIRECTORS, 9/26/2005 20:43:23--  *** Grosbier --> yup, 9/26/2005 20:43:23--  david j. halblom sr. --> what would be a record committee ruling if a record is shot and only yardage rotation and no stationary backer?, 9/26/2005 20:43:49--  Jim Borden --> wow----it could be null and void, 9/26/2005 20:43:52--  *** Grosbier --> if it came up it would seem void to me, 9/26/2005 20:43:57--  Dan Hackett --> Technically, it would not be a legal record, Dave. 9/26/2005 20:44:13--  Leon Garfield --> why?, 9/26/2005 20:44:28--  david j. halblom sr. --> Tell that to Roy, Mike, Dale, Dave 9/26/2005 20:44:31--  Jim Borden --> Leon--because rules for procedure were not followed, 9/26/2005 20:44:39--  Dan Hackett --> Do the rules require sending backers along with a potential record set of targets, as they do in group competition? 9/26/2005 20:44:41--  Leon Garfield --> cause not backer 9/26/2005 20:45:05--  Leon Garfield --> yardage rotation is legal 9/26/2005 20:45:08--  Jim Borden --> stationary probably would not void reford 9/26/2005 20:45:09--  *** Grosbier --> getting back to David apples question I think a record shot at 7 min matches would be ok as it is more restrictive but if 12 min matches are used it would never count for anything 9/26/2005 20:45:18--  Jim Borden --> record 9/26/2005 20:45:35--  Jim Borden --> ***--that is correct 9/26/2005 20:45:43--  David NMN Apple --> thank you 9/26/2005 20:46:15--  Leon Garfield --> Jim are you saying that a record shot with yardage rotation is not OK 9/26/2005 20:46:19--  david j. halblom sr. --> I have to agree on the time issue.  W e have developed the habit of polling the shooters before we start.  Even though we advertise 7 minutes 9/26/2005 20:46:34--  Jim Borden --> however if one iBS member shows up at a match using 7 minutes and he/she complains--then the club must use the 10 minute matches 9/26/2005 20:46:50--  david j. halblom sr. --> As we have complied. 9/26/2005 20:46:56--  *** Grosbier --> that was my understanding 9/26/2005 20:47:01--  Jim Borden --> leon--I did not say that 9/26/2005 20:47:18--  Leon Garfield --> OK why would it be null and void then 9/26/2005 20:47:22--  Jim Borden --> not sure how you got that out of what was said 9/26/2005 20:47:39--  Jim Borden --> if rotation is not used at all was the question 9/26/2005 20:47:54--  *** Grosbier --> only grand aggregate matches require some form of rotation, 9/26/2005 20:48:03--  Dan Hackett --> We held 10-minute matches when we first started at Mason City, but everyone was always done shooting in less than 7 minutes, and the shooters voted to go with the shorter period.  But as Jim says, even one shooter can veto that. 9/26/2005 20:48:19--  david j. halblom sr. --> correct Dan, 9/26/2005 20:48:32--  *** Grosbier --> the 100yd record or 200 yd can be broken at a one day match with no rotation, 9/26/2005 20:48:44--  Jim Borden --> correct --***, 9/26/2005 20:48:54--  david j. halblom sr. --> Define a Grand Agg., 9/26/2005 20:49:20--  Dan Hackett --> Grand agg is the total of two scores fired at two different yardages., 9/26/2005 20:49:21--  Leon Garfield --> Question by David was only YARDAGE rotation and NO stationary backers you said could be null and void, 9/26/2005 20:49:21--  *** Grosbier --> if the 100 was broken at a 2 day match I am not sure it would stand if rotation was not used, 9/26/2005 20:49:32--  Jim Borden --> grand aggs are listed in the course of fire section of the rulebook--brb, 9/26/2005 20:49:59--  Jim Borden',"""-->""","'b. SCORE REGISTERED GRAND AGGREGATES",,, 9/26/2005 20:50:07--  david j. halblom sr. --> My book is buried in the van.  1-2 hrs to get it, 9/26/2005 20:50:09--  *** Grosbier --> 100-200, 200-300, etc 9/26/2005 20:50:16--  Jim Borden --> did not come out well in text version, 9/26/2005 20:50:24--  *** Grosbier --> even 100-200-300, 9/26/2005 20:50:27--  Jim Borden --> David--download it from IBS site, 9/26/2005 20:50:40--  david j. halblom sr. --> I have it. 9/26/2005 20:50:42--  *** Grosbier --> but 100-300 is not a recognized aggregate 9/26/2005 20:50:49--  Leon Garfield --> Ok so as long as some kind of rotation is used and backers it is good on grand agg shoots 9/26/2005 20:51:07--  *** Grosbier --> and all other rules followed 9/26/2005 20:51:08--  Jim Borden --> leon--correct--I must have misunderstood the ? 9/26/2005 20:51:18--  Dan Hackett --> Even if the two yardages are shot on two different days, Leon. 9/26/2005 20:51:22--  Leon Garfield --> that’s ok 9/26/2005 20:51:29--  Leon Garfield --> just wanted to be correct thanks 9/26/2005 20:51:35--  Jim Borden --> ok 9/26/2005 20:51:42--  *** Grosbier --> it has been done on separate weekends 9/26/2005 20:51:58--  *** Grosbier --> but certain conditions must be followed 9/26/2005 20:52:04--  Jim Borden --> ***--that is correct and then it also follows the rotation rule 9/26/2005 20:52:11--  *** Grosbier --> it must be advertised 9/26/2005 20:52:24--  *** Grosbier --> according to score comm. 9/26/2005 20:52:54--  david j. halblom sr.',"""-->""","'I am more than a bit skeptical of a ""grand ag"" over 2 or 3 weekends", 9/26/2005 20:53:12--  JIM GOODY --> why? 9/26/2005 20:53:12--  Jim Borden --> why David--it works ok--not optimal--but works 9/26/2005 20:53:15--  david j. halblom sr. --> BRB Max 9/26/2005 20:53:29--  Dan Hackett --> As long as that is specified in the club's contract with IBS, it's perfectly OK, Dave. 9/26/2005 20:53:29--  *** Grosbier --> check out Maine Firecracker and Md state 100-200 coupled with Frederick county challenge(300yd) 9/26/2005 20:53:51--  Jim Borden --> good examples *** 9/26/2005 20:54:11--  Dan Hackett --> Right, ***.  Although not common, a grand agg can even be fired at two different facilities. 9/26/2005 20:54:22--  *** Grosbier --> true 9/26/2005 20:54:27--  Al Nyhus --> Should be no problem as long as all competitors know in advance what the deal is. 9/26/2005 20:54:34--  JIM GOODY --> we know what happens when you don’t advertise the three yardage deal correct *** 9/26/2005 20:54:43--  Dan Hackett --> Hence the requirement for advertising, Al. 9/26/2005 20:54:48--  Jim Borden --> that is the key point Al 9/26/2005 20:54:50--  *** Grosbier --> that’s why score comm requires it be advertised I guess 9/26/2005 20:54:52--  Al Nyhus --> Yep. 9/26/2005 20:55:43--  Dan Hackett --> We've had group 2-gun aggs held over two different match weekends.  Worked very well, in fact. 9/26/2005 20:56:10--  Jim Borden --> any other ?'s on course of fire or rules for procedure in score section? 9/26/2005 20:56:40--  Leon Garfield --> scoring #2  I don't see where it says the refs have the final say. It says if the scorer cant make a decision then he will get the refs 9/26/2005 20:56:49--  Dan Hackett --> There is the issue you and I have been discussing via e-mail, Jim, if you want to bring that up. 9/26/2005 20:57:14--  David NMN Apple --> I have a question, 9/26/2005 20:57:23--  Bill Sargent --> pit duty?, 9/26/2005 20:57:23--  Jim Borden --> If Scorer cannot arrive at a decision then it is to be made by the Referees before the plug is removed., 9/26/2005 20:57:42--  Jim Borden --> Leon--the above is pretty clear to me----, 9/26/2005 20:57:54--  Leon Garfield --> right so if the scorer makes a decision then it sounds like it is final, 9/26/2005 20:57:59--  David NMN Apple --> if potential record is possible, rules say targets must be signed by refs AND range officer. if no range officer signing is it legal? 9/26/2005 20:58:03--  Jim Borden --> it says decision is to be made by refs, 9/26/2005 20:58:22--  Leon Garfield --> If he cannot arrive at a decision, 9/26/2005 20:58:22--  Jim Borden --> scorer decision can be protested by a shooter, 9/26/2005 20:58:27--  David NMN Apple --> 30 minute protest period, 9/26/2005 20:58:34--  Leon Garfield --> Ok, 9/26/2005 20:59:00--  Jim Borden --> referee decision can also be protested by a shooter--just takes longer to get answer, 9/26/2005 20:59:00--  Dan Hackett --> Leon, I've been a referee when a scorer's decision was changed, and I have made successful protests, too.  The scorer's decision CAN be changed. 9/26/2005 20:59:17--  Leon Garfield --> Just looking for clarification that’s all, I have seen it do Dan 9/26/2005 20:59:44--  Leon Garfield --> remember some of us are NEWbies, 9/26/2005 20:59:56--  JIM GOODY --> I have a question on crossfires 9/26/2005 21:00:00--  Dan Hackett --> Not forgetting that, Leon.  :-) 9/26/2005 21:00:03--  Jim Borden --> Leon--no problem-- 9/26/2005 21:00:19--  David NMN Apple --> jim, the ref/ range officer question please 9/26/2005 21:00:31--  Jim Borden --> what ? dave 9/26/2005 21:01:22--  David NMN Apple --> the rules say refs must sign POTENTIAL records AND the range officer. if the targets are in the hands of a score comm member can the range officer sign them at a later date? 9/26/2005 21:01:31--  David NMN Apple --> later 9/26/2005 21:01:50--  David NMN Apple --> for a potential multiple yardage agg 9/26/2005 21:01:52--  Jim Borden --> the RO and the refs should sign before they are submitted to score committee 9/26/2005 21:02:37--  Jim Borden --> when score committee members have been present at range I have seen that practice reversed--not saying that is ok--it is not 9/26/2005 21:02:38--  Dan Hackett --> Jim, is it legal/proper for a referee to sign his own targets if they are a potential record? 9/26/2005 21:02:47--  David NMN Apple --> this weekend the targets were signed by the refs but not the range officer. the last match is in 2 weeks. can the range officer still sign them before the match? 9/26/2005 21:02:57--  Jim Borden --> no 9/26/2005 21:03:12--  David NMN Apple --> DRAT 9/26/2005 21:03:19--  Jim Borden --> that is unless it is the 100/200 and 300 thing over three weekends 9/26/2005 21:03:35--  David NMN Apple --> that is what I am referring to jim 9/26/2005 21:03:46--  Jim Borden --> the grand is not finished yet 9/26/2005 21:04:13--  Jim Borden --> would have been good practice to get the signatures at the end of the 200 9/26/2005 21:04:31--  David NMN Apple --> refs did sign it but the rules say ro too 9/26/2005 21:04:36--  Jim Borden --> Dan--legal--but not good practice for individual to sign as referee his own targets 9/26/2005 21:04:45--  david j. halblom sr. --> But if the agg is not finished, why cannot the targets be signed? 9/26/2005 21:05:12--  Jim Borden --> they can be signed--Dave--in fact it is good practice---- 9/26/2005 21:05:31--  *** Grosbier --> that’s why Gary took them 9/26/2005 21:05:44--  Jim Borden --> just an area that needs much better clarification for multi weekend aggs 9/26/2005 21:05:57--  Jim Borden --> Gary had foresight!!! 9/26/2005 21:06:02--  David NMN Apple --> so we are cool for a POTENTIAL record right jim? 9/26/2005 21:06:08--  Jim Borden --> yes Dave 9/26/2005 21:06:14--  david j. halblom sr. --> And it is back to my skeptical over 2-3 weekends. 9/26/2005 21:06:17--  Jim Borden --> shoot well 9/26/2005 21:06:19--  David NMN Apple --> thank you. I will alert curtis 9/26/2005 21:06:23--  David NMN Apple --> thanks 9/26/2005 21:06:36--  Jim Borden --> why skeptical david? 9/26/2005 21:06:53--  David NMN Apple --> the rules say RO. I never knew that 9/26/2005 21:06:56--  david j. halblom sr. --> Like running the Indy 500 over 3 days 9/26/2005 21:07:09--  David NMN Apple --> play fair 9/26/2005 21:07:17--  *** Grosbier --> the indy 500 is one race 9/26/2005 21:07:21--  Jim Borden --> still do not understand--hate to say it but you are almost sounding like Pete 9/26/2005 21:07:29--  *** Grosbier --> ouch 9/26/2005 21:07:33--  David NMN Apple --> easy now:-| 9/26/2005 21:07:35--  david j. halblom sr. --> A grand agg is ONE race 9/26/2005 21:07:40--  Jim Borden --> help me understand your point 9/26/2005 21:07:52--  Leon Garfield --> NO grand agg is shoot in one day 9/26/2005 21:07:56--  *** Grosbier --> composed of 3 events (in this case) 9/26/2005 21:08:00--  David NMN Apple --> I just want to know we arte doing the right thing 9/26/2005 21:08:13--  David NMN Apple --> the right way 9/26/2005 21:08:26--  Dan Hackett --> No, Dave.  A grand agg is composed of two or more separate events. 9/26/2005 21:08:28--  Al Nyhus --> Sure they are, Leon. 9/26/2005 21:08:31--  Jim Borden --> david apple--was not questioning you--I was questioning David H 9/26/2005 21:08:35--  *** Grosbier --> actually grands are sometimes shot in one day but not required 9/26/2005 21:08:37--  david j. halblom sr. --> Not trying to take Pete's place.  And yes grand aggs Are Shot In One Day.  E very match weekend in Iowa\ 9/26/2005 21:08:49--  David NMN Apple --> sorry 9/26/2005 21:08:52--  Leon Garfield --> OK most are at least 2 days 9/26/2005 21:08:55--  Al Nyhus --> And Wis, and Ks. 9/26/2005 21:09:08--  david j. halblom sr. --> Thank you Al 9/26/2005 21:09:17--  Dan Hackett --> Leon, not so.  Except at really big tournaments, most grand aggs are shot in one day. 9/26/2005 21:09:27--  *** Grosbier --> actually many of the newer score clubs shoot grands in one day hence the 7 min thing 9/26/2005 21:09:29--  Jim Borden --> 1 day --two days or over two weekends--I do not see much difference-you still have to shoot the targets 9/26/2005 21:09:36--  david j. halblom sr.',"""-->""","'only the ""heritage"" clubs shoot the 1 yardage 1 day format",, 9/26/2005 21:09:37--  Al Nyhus --> Regional practice does not make it the rules, Leon. 9/26/2005 21:09:48--  Leon Garfield --> I’m with you JIM 9/26/2005 21:10:06--  *** Grosbier',"""-->""","'there's a new term ""Heritage Club""",, 9/26/2005 21:10:14--  Leon Garfield --> Nor does your way 9/26/2005 21:10:23--  david j. halblom sr. --> like heritage airlines 9/26/2005 21:10:34--  *** Grosbier --> actually Vermont is new this year David 9/26/2005 21:10:39--  Rod Franzius --> East of the PA border, 9/26/2005 21:10:42--  Al Nyhus --> But again...as long as the shooters know the format (whatever it is) it's a non issue., 9/26/2005 21:10:46--  Jim Borden --> guys--lets not et into my way is the better way stuff----, 9/26/2005 21:10:52--  david j. halblom sr. --> What about complete rebuild of a rifle over the ensuing week?, 9/26/2005 21:11:12--  Al Nyhus --> Agreed, Leon...works both ways.//26 9/26/2005 21:11:13--  *** Grosbier --> does not have to be same rifle, 9/26/2005 21:11:15--  Jim Borden --> David--I have seen rifles rebuilt over a nationals week in group shooting, 9/26/2005 21:11:24--  Leon Garfield --> IM good with both ways, 9/26/2005 21:11:32--  *** Grosbier --> just same shooter and class, 9/26/2005 21:11:34--  Dan Hackett --> What about it, Dave?  Someone can change barrels, or even use a different rifle from one agg to the next, even on the same day. 9/26/2005 21:11:38--  David NMN Apple --> correct, 9/26/2005 21:11:48--  Al Nyhus --> That's one nice thing about the IBS...it allows for regional differences to accommodate the shooters. Great idea, IMO. 9/26/2005 21:11:48--  Jim Borden --> good point Dan, 9/26/2005 21:12:15--  david j. halblom sr. --> OK.  I'm not trying to say it is better.  I'm trying to see the reasoning.  Trying to get the cause-effect discussed, 9/26/2005 21:12:33--  david j. halblom sr. --> Al, right on!!!! 9/26/2005 21:12:39--  Jim Borden',"""-->""","'I have only gone to a few group shoots that have grand aggs each day and most of us ""dump"" on the club doing it such as Painted Post",,, 9/26/2005 21:12:47--  Leon Garfield --> We are slow David we need more than one day....LOL 9/26/2005 21:12:54--  Rod Franzius --> You can change rifles in one agg 9/26/2005 21:13:06--  david j. halblom sr. --> Ronnie Berg likes SLOW 9/26/2005 21:13:27--  *** Grosbier --> this might be a reason to not allow 2 rifles in same agg , 9/26/2005 21:13:28--  Dan Hackett --> It's not complicated.  Everyone knows what the format is, and you give your approval when you sign up for the agg. 9/26/2005 21:13:29--  Al Nyhus --> Leon...hope you didn't take my response as being a smart aleck...not meant that way. 9/26/2005 21:13:56--  Leon Garfield --> NO was using a little humor were cool 9/26/2005 21:13:58--  Jim Borden --> I like fast paced shoots--I love shooting score--but the paccccceeee kills me 9/26/2005 21:14:02--  Al Nyhus --> //32 9/26/2005 21:14:16--  *** Grosbier --> it's the pace I like 9/26/2005 21:14:25--  Jim Borden --> Thurmont runs them fast--- 9/26/2005 21:14:40--  Al Nyhus --> Jim...you would love shooting out here...100-200 6X agg one day, the VFS 100-200 the next. 9/26/2005 21:14:42--  david j. halblom sr. --> Then I will propose a 7 minute match rule.  That ought to stir the Sh@@@##$%% 9/26/2005 21:14:46--  Leon Garfield --> I have had noting but fast pace running targets and shooting, there is not much time to get bored 9/26/2005 21:14:48--  Jim Borden --> Eddie and gang get targets changed and next relay is on the way!! 9/26/2005 21:15:05--  Jim Borden --> David--I am all for it 9/26/2005 21:15:14--  Dan Hackett --> The 7-minute format does speed things up. 9/26/2005 21:15:18--  *** Grosbier --> we had to slow down Sunday we went too fast Saturday 9/26/2005 21:15:31--  david j. halblom sr. --> we have run 3 relays, 2 yardage, 2 guns in 1 day and not breathe hard 9/26/2005 21:15:50--  Jim Borden --> now that is moving 9/26/2005 21:15:54--  *** Grosbier --> 3 relays we were done with awards and people on road at 3:15 9/26/2005 21:15:59--  Jim Borden --> that is moving 9/26/2005 21:16:00--  Al Nyhus --> If I can't get 'er done in 7, I'm hopelessly lost anyway! 9/26/2005 21:16:08--  David NMN Apple --> excellent job *** 9/26/2005 21:16:16--  david j. halblom sr. --> Go ***! 9/26/2005 21:16:30--  Bill Sargent --> dg faster than us? 9/26/2005 21:16:43--  Jim Borden --> Dan--did you want to open the bench occupation thing? 9/26/2005 21:16:48--  Rod Franzius --> VT is FAST 9/26/2005 21:16:52--  *** Grosbier --> I agree Al but the old timers in east will hang you by tour thumbs if you try to force 7 min matches I think 9/26/2005 21:17:08--  david j. halblom sr. --> Majority rule? 9/26/2005 21:17:20--  Dan Hackett --> I shot a group match last week where we started a two-relay grand agg at 8:30 a.m., and were on the road home at 2:00 p.m.  Glad I was preloaded..... 9/26/2005 21:17:35--  dwayne garfield --> We can vote to have 10 min. 9/26/2005 21:17:38--  Dan Hackett --> Jim, if you want to discuss that, it's fine with me. 9/26/2005 21:17:51--  Al Nyhus --> That's why we all get a vote, ***. At least those of us that don’t have to fly 1000 miles one way to the meeting.;-) 9/26/2005 21:18:00--  Leon Garfield --> we shoot 3 relays done shooting at 2:30 starting at 9am 9/26/2005 21:18:03--  Jim Borden --> we had discussed it before here--just wanted to see if you wanted more clarification on it 9/26/2005 21:18:34--  Bill Sargent --> yes please Jim 9/26/2005 21:18:47--  Dan Hackett --> As I've said, Jim, I think the rules are not at all clear on this issue. 9/26/2005 21:19:13--  david j. halblom sr. --> Al, drive to DSM and ride out with me.  I will be there ! 9/26/2005 21:19:16--  Jim Borden --> maybe not--but clear the benches here has meant take your rifle off the rest 9/26/2005 21:19:43--  David NMN Apple --> clear English 9/26/2005 21:19:48--  Dan Hackett --> ...and I've never seen that when only one person used a bench. 9/26/2005 21:20:00--  Jim Borden --> no rifle on rest means--no one is going to occupy that bench in next relay 9/26/2005 21:20:01--  Leon Garfield --> Is it ok Jim to set up your rests and stuff between relays when target crew is down range?? 9/26/2005 21:20:34--  Jim Borden --> I have Dan--for 28 competitive years--have even seen range officer hold target crew from going down range until the rifle was cleared from the rest 9/26/2005 21:20:49--  David NMN Apple --> good practice 9/26/2005 21:20:57--  Jim Borden --> Leon--clubs discretion and it is common practice to do that 9/26/2005 21:21:07--  Leon Garfield --> Ok thanks 9/26/2005 21:21:33--  Jim Borden --> However--it does not mean a comp from relay #2 can set his stuff up when relay #1 is setting stuff-relay #2 has NOT been called to the line 9/26/2005 21:21:33--  Leon Garfield --> Gun can be sat up to as long as bolt is out?? 9/26/2005 21:21:42--  Leon Garfield --> Right I agree 9/26/2005 21:21:56--  Jim Borden --> leon--yes for the really that is going to shoot but not for future realys 9/26/2005 21:22:05--  Leon Garfield --> right thanks 9/26/2005 21:22:32--  Dan Hackett --> However, the language of the rules is open to interpretation. 9/26/2005 21:22:43--  Jim Borden --> Dan--some clubs have interpreted clear the benches to mean even the rests--we have advised that is not the intent 9/26/2005 21:22:45--  Leon Garfield --> one more thing 9/26/2005 21:22:57--  Jim Borden --> Dan--not for setting up of a rifle 9/26/2005 21:23:09--  Jim Borden --> you can not set it up if you have not been called to the line 9/26/2005 21:23:21--  Leon Garfield --> So if I am done shooting my relay all my stuff has to be removed from the bench or just my gun in no one is shooting another relay on my bench 9/26/2005 21:23:52--  *** Grosbier --> can you leave your rest if agreeable with other users of that bench? 9/26/2005 21:23:52--  Jim Borden --> just your gun--if someone is sharing your rest and no one else will be using the bench on a subsequent relay 9/26/2005 21:24:08--  Leon Garfield --> Thanks 9/26/2005 21:24:09--  Dan Hackett',"""-->""","'It would be better if the rules specify what is meant by ""clearing"" a bench.  They do NOT say that means only the rifle must be removed.", 9/26/2005 21:24:21--  Jim Borden --> ***--Sure --but it aggravates me when I go to the bench and there is stuff on it 9/26/2005 21:24:30--  Jim Borden --> OK dan 9/26/2005 21:24:31--  *** Grosbier --> agreed 9/26/2005 21:24:49--  Francis Becigneul --> I guess it means whatever the R.O. says it means. 9/26/2005 21:24:54--  Jim Borden --> It is my bench for the relay I am shooting 9/26/2005 21:25:21--  Dan Hackett --> What about a single-relay match, Jim? 9/26/2005 21:25:43--  *** Grosbier --> but  if there is room and only two shooters I as a leftie frequently get along with a right handed shooter if bench is wide enough 9/26/2005 21:25:58--  Jim Borden --> Dan--clear the benches has meant rifle must be removed as minimum--probably should say that in this day and age 9/26/2005 21:26:02--  *** Grosbier --> just front rest 9/26/2005 21:26:25--  Leon Garfield --> I guess clear the benches means just that CLEAR them 9/26/2005 21:26:38--  Jim Borden --> ***--I understand that--but I do not like the stuff there--particularly since I use RR with ejectors 9/26/2005 21:26:43--  Leon Garfield --> but if competitors don't mind what the heck 9/26/2005 21:26:59--  Jim Borden --> Correct leon--that is key word for leaving rest 9/26/2005 21:27:10--  *** Grosbier --> I as a leftie also hate it when people leave all there stuff on right hand side of bench forgetting 11% of the shooters sit there 9/26/2005 21:27:33--  Leon Garfield --> Right sounds like a little communication between shooters and everything is good. Rifle must be removed.... 9/26/2005 21:27:35--  Jim Borden --> ***--right ON!!!! 9/26/2005 21:27:58--  Dan Hackett --> This should not be an issue when multiple shooters share a bench, in my opinion.  I always remove ALL my gear at the end of a match, and expect other shooters using the same bench to do likewise. 9/26/2005 21:28:11--  Jim Borden --> me too Dan 9/26/2005 21:28:20--  Leon Garfield --> And if they don't do you ask them to??? 9/26/2005 21:28:35--  *** Grosbier --> that is your right Dan but agreements can be made if all parties agree 9/26/2005 21:28:43--  Jim Borden --> I do--gets me some lip at times--but it is MY bench for that 10 Minutes 9/26/2005 21:28:52--  *** Grosbier --> yes 9/26/2005 21:28:58--  Dan Hackett --> I do, Leon.  (And most people ask if it's OK before the first match.) 9/26/2005 21:29:09--  Leon Garfield --> Right, If you were to ask me I would move it no problem 9/26/2005 21:29:54--  Jim Borden --> Guess we are winding down--any other questions before we close 9/26/2005 21:29:58--  Leon Garfield --> Well Thanks I have to get up early Night all 9/26/2005 21:30:25--  Bill Sargent --> thanks Jim 9/26/2005 21:30:28--  Rod Franzius --> Night Leon 9/26/2005 21:30:30--  David NMN Apple --> did any winners use moly this weekend? 9/26/2005 21:30:33--  Dan Hackett --> Rotation after every match would completely eliminate any difficulties on this issue.  ;-D 9/26/2005 21:30:50--  Jim Borden --> all right Dan--I agree 9/26/2005 21:30:53--  mike ricklefs --> Thanks jim. Night all 9/26/2005 21:31:33--  Jim Borden --> Night all Posted Sep 26 2005, 12:30 PM by Stan Ware with no comments Filed under: IBS, Rule Book Chat

• IBS Rule Book Chat - Transcript 4

  9/21/05 20:03:58 Jim Borden-->hi all 9/21/05 20:04:02 bob beyer-->Jim 9/21/05 20:04:03 Pete Wass-->Lads 9/21/05 20:04:06 bob beyer-->peter 9/21/05 20:04:08 Halldor Nikulasson-->Pete 9/21/05 20:04:16 Dwayne Garfield-->Pete 9/21/05 20:04:29 Stephen Perry-->lucky Jim wasn't here for the gun weighing comments 9/21/05 20:04:38 Jim Borden-->Leon--I was wrong about something the other night-all rifles do not have to be weighed--all rifles are to be inspected 9/21/05 20:04:50 Jim Borden',"'I. Inspection of Equipment" "1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches",, "2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line",, 9/21/05 20:04:52 Leon Garfield-->for what??? 9/21/05 20:05:08 Bill Sargent-->lg/dg/dg  did we weigh guns?   no ok we should have according the prs of our association  however at present my understanding is that  weighing is the only requirement of rifle inspection for a sanctioned match,, 9/21/05 20:05:49 Bill Sargent-->hi jb I was typing and didn’t see u arrive,, 9/21/05 20:05:56 Leon Garfield-->So what does that mean JIM,, 9/21/05 20:06:00 Leon Garfield-->says MAY,, 9/21/05 20:06:12 Dwayne Garfield-->We were a knew club, we only done as we were told, we always tried to do right, then some of the people telling us what to do started bitching 9/21/05 20:06:14 Leon Garfield-->referees shall,, 9/21/05 20:06:14 Jim Borden-->see the pasted note above--all rifles are to be inspected--but it does not say what inspections are required--it is discretion of referees--at most matches--that means they are weighed,, 9/21/05 20:06:26 Pete Wass-->May is a fickle woman,, 9/21/05 20:06:27 Leon Garfield-->ok,, 9/21/05 20:06:30 Stephen Perry-->what good does it do to weigh your own gun. is this the honor system or does a shooter pack up and go home during a match if he hasn't made weight,, 9/21/05 20:06:54 Jim Borden-->referees weigh the rifles,, 9/21/05 20:07:11 Leon Garfield-->all of them or selected ones,, 9/21/05 20:07:26 Stephen Perry-->I would not select referees that did not weigh guns at san gabriel.,, 9/21/05 20:07:29 bob beyer-->up to the ref,, 9/21/05 20:07:41 *** Grosbier-->contestants can weigh their own rifle for their own information,, 9/21/05 20:07:45 Jim Borden-->competitors can check their own at any time--but the referees are to inspect all rifles---they may weigh some-measure some or whatever--usually--they are weighed,, 9/21/05 20:08:10 Leon Garfield-->been to 12 shoots never had a gun checked yet 9/21/05 20:08:36 Pete Wass-->Usually, refs only check scoring issues from what I have seen 9/21/05 20:08:39 Jim Borden-->Leon--that is because SCORE SHOOTING has gotten very LAX about the rules and that is going to change 9/21/05 20:08:50 bob beyer-->that’s what we are trying to straighten out Leon 9/21/05 20:08:55 *** Grosbier-->that will probably change Leon 9/21/05 20:09:16 Stephen Perry-->a scale and weights are always available at my matches and ref weigh all sp/var guns every time. no big deal takes 10-15 min 9/21/05 20:09:20 Jim Borden-->hi Dave 9/21/05 20:09:26 David NMN Apple-->hi Jim 9/21/05 20:09:30 Jim Borden-->that is right Stephen 9/21/05 20:09:33 Leon Garfield-->Hi David 9/21/05 20:09:46 bob beyer-->David 9/21/05 20:09:50 Stephen Perry-->thanks Jim 9/21/05 20:09:55 Jim Borden-->Leon--do not take things personal--I have not heard anyone griping about Vermont 9/21/05 20:10:09 bob beyer-->vt. is great 9/21/05 20:10:22 Bill Sargent-->JB please I'm getting confused  48 hrs. ago guns needed to be weighed at each match.  Now all inspections are at the discretion of the refs?  i.e. nothing is required 9/21/05 20:10:29 Pete Wass-->Vt has done a wonderful job for a new club 9/21/05 20:10:44 bob beyer-->for sure 9/21/05 20:11:16 Dwayne Garfield-->Hi Butch you old rascal 9/21/05 20:11:16 Leon Garfield-->Alls I am saying is that ALL clubs need to do it to make it work. I have no Problem with any of the rules my gun is well within them, I just don't want people saying I’m not going there they inspect guns and no one else does.... 9/21/05 20:11:20 Leon Garfield-->Butch 9/21/05 20:11:23 Jim Borden-->Bill--I mis-spoke---I reread the rulebook section and it says all guns are to be inspected--I pasted it in above--I will paste it here again--nothing confusing about it 9/21/05 20:11:28 *** Grosbier-->He said he was wrong Bill 9/21/05 20:11:33 bob beyer-->he said he had made a mistake bill 9/21/05 20:11:38 Jim Borden',"'I. Inspection of Equipment", "1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches",,, "2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line",,, 9/21/05 20:12:08 Pete Wass-->BS, this points up the need to make the rules both understandable and consistent 9/21/05 20:12:27 Bill Sargent-->k Jim so NO inspection of guns is required at any match including nat's etc. in LBS 9/21/05 20:12:33 Stephen Perry-->bill match directors that don't respect the weighing rule will always pick refs that don't weigh 9/21/05 20:12:37 Jim Borden-->Pete--read it--it is very clear--every rifle will be inspected and it is the referees discretion of what to inspect-- 9/21/05 20:12:38 Bill Sargent-->IBS 9/21/05 20:13:00 Jim Borden-->Bill--no all guns will be inspected 9/21/05 20:13:02 *** Grosbier-->no Pete it shows anybody can make a slightly incorrect statement  that’s all, 9/21/05 20:13:07 Pete Wass-->Jim, it can't be very clear if there was a misunderstanding 9/21/05 20:13:38 Bill Sargent-->ok Jim they will be inspected and what is checked is up to the refs?, 9/21/05 20:13:44 Leon Garfield-->I am going to write a new rule for inspection for next year, I think it should only be done to the top 3 in each class, 9/21/05 20:13:55 Jim Borden-->Pete--I have had it with this BS---I made a mistake--I am human---it has been a practice for years in group shooting to weigh all guns to meet the inspection requirement, 9/21/05 20:13:55 bob beyer-->how can you misunderstand that statement, 9/21/05 20:13:57 Leon Garfield-->the dead line is JULY 1st right Jim, 9/21/05 20:14:14 Jim Borden-->Bill--that is right, 9/21/05 20:14:16 Stephen Perry-->what happens in IBS if a shooter refuses to have his gun weighed, 9/21/05 20:14:21 Jim Borden-->right Leon, 9/21/05 20:14:32 Jim Borden-->he gets DQ'd, 9/21/05 20:14:33 *** Grosbier-->Problem with that Leon is inspection after the fact sometimes creates bad feelings, 9/21/05 20:14:57 Leon Garfield-->Not if your legal and we  are all supposed to be, 9/21/05 20:14:58 Jim Borden-->Leon--I do not like inspecting winners--the competitor should have an opportunity to make things right, 9/21/05 20:15:02 Pete Wass-->I wasn't picking at you Jim. I didn't know you had made the statement., 9/21/05 20:15:07 Dwayne Garfield-->then you should not shot if gun is illegal, 9/21/05 20:15:17 Leon Garfield-->I think we all know what the rules are so we should be legal 9/21/05 20:15:57 Jim Borden-->I have been in this sport for 28 years and I believe that the way to inspect equipment is before match 1 begins 9/21/05 20:16:10 Pete Wass-->I think there should be a meeting before every match where everything is explained to competitors. Mandatory attendance 9/21/05 20:16:14 *** Grosbier-->all contestants are not cheaters some times a mistake is made like changing to a scope you did not realize was heavier 9/21/05 20:16:51 Jim Borden-->Pete--the range officer reads very specific instructions and all competitors are present--and I bet I could take a poll on what was said and almost no one would know 9/21/05 20:16:55 Stephen Perry-->if more ranges would weigh guns more shooters would demand guns be weighed so to avoid not knowing if they made weight 9/21/05 20:17:04 Bill Sargent-->k Jim that's no problem at all>  It gives the match directors and ref lee way to determine infractions.  The part in the rule discussions that have been missing is that the people who spend their time running events only want to do the right thing.  All they are looking for is support from IBS and guidance on how to do things. 9/21/05 20:17:05 Leon Garfield-->Well I am new Jim and I don't know how inspection works cause I ain't see any 9/21/05 20:17:12 Pete Wass-->I agree Jim. 9/21/05 20:17:29 Jim Borden-->he explains what to do for hold your fire and cease fire and crossfire and no one pays attention 9/21/05 20:17:31 bob beyer-->the rule you pasted Jim says preferably as shooters leave line. 9/21/05 20:17:43 Pete Wass-->That is why I think a meeting could help in that regard 9/21/05 20:17:49 Jim Borden-->leave line from warm-up has been the practice 9/21/05 20:18:13 Jim Borden-->if no warm-up--practice was to weigh on the way to the line 9/21/05 20:18:41 *** Grosbier-->shooting an overweight rifle in Warm-up is not grounds for DQ 9/21/05 20:18:58 bob beyer-->thx 9/21/05 20:19:03 Jim Borden-->***--that is correct, 9/21/05 20:19:30 Pete Wass-->I think everything should be done before the event starts, including warm-up 9/21/05 20:19:38 bob beyer-->when may they omit warm-up, 9/21/05 20:19:39 *** Grosbier-->but if you win and are found overweight it is mandatory, 9/21/05 20:20:12 Stephen Perry-->in group not so ***. if wu can count as a wr group, 9/21/05 20:20:14 Jim Borden-->warm-up may be omitted when two aggregates are fired in one day, 9/21/05 20:20:19 David NMN Apple-->Jim, if a creedmore goes backwards into the warm-up shouldn't the warm-up fall under the match conditions? 9/21/05 20:20:26 Bill Sargent-->As I understand now checking, not checking, and when to check is up to refs? 9/21/05 20:20:32 David NMN Apple-->over weight gun should not be shot at all, 9/21/05 20:20:42 bob beyer-->thx again, 9/21/05 20:20:46 Jim Borden-->Bill-that is entirely correct, 9/21/05 20:20:54 Bill Sargent-->k thanks, 9/21/05 20:21:12 Halldor Nikulasson-->night guys and take care!!, 9/21/05 20:21:15 Jim Borden-->Dave--makes sense--and last I knew creedmore does not use the warm-up, 9/21/05 20:21:23 Jim Borden-->Night hall, 9/21/05 20:21:27 Bill Sargent-->tk hn, 9/21/05 20:21:28 bob beyer-->see ya hall 9/21/05 20:21:31 Stephen Perry-->night hall 9/21/05 20:21:58 *** Grosbier-->I agree and it is contestants responsibility but if shown to be overweight before actual match it does not hurt near as much 9/21/05 20:22:09 Jim Borden-->I agree *** 9/21/05 20:22:39 Jim Borden-->Dave--when does creedmore go back to warm-up? 9/21/05 20:22:54 *** Grosbier-->gets back to illegal rifles are not always intentionally so 9/21/05 20:23:02 Pete Wass-->I wonder why anyone would want to push the limits that hard to be overweight 9/21/05 20:23:21 Jim Borden-->Pete--some gunsmiths use baby scales 9/21/05 20:23:51 Pete Wass-->Ah so, I use my Stren scales which seem to be perfect 9/21/05 20:23:53 Jim Borden-->not supporting that--just want to give the competitor the benefit of the doubt 9/21/05 20:23:54 David NMN Apple-->if 2 are tied throughout doesn't the tie breaker go back into the warm-up? 9/21/05 20:24:07 Jim Borden-->David--no 9/21/05 20:24:19 Bill Sargent-->guys  you are not requiring weighing  how can you say how and when it should be done? 9/21/05 20:24:20 Jim Borden-->David--I had better check--I think no 9/21/05 20:24:35 David NMN Apple-->thank you 9/21/05 20:24:48 Jim Borden-->Bill--I am not saying when and how it should be done--I suggested when it should be done 9/21/05 20:25:01 David NMN Apple-->how is the creedmore broken then? 9/21/05 20:25:35 Jim Borden-->if it is all 25 x--there is no breaking it--or if the x string is exactly the same-there is no breaking it 9/21/05 20:25:40 Pete Wass-->Several Winter meetings ago there was a long discussion about weighing. As I recall, 9/21/05 20:25:46 bob beyer-->lot of guys double tap or don't shoot all bulls in warm-up 9/21/05 20:25:48 Stephen Perry-->true *** but shooting a possible wr with a gun overweight gun known by the shooter in the wu and switching to a legal weight gun to be weighed later is grounds for a dq if the ref can corner the overweight gun. no possible wr. 9/21/05 20:26:30 Bill Sargent-->k  again no problem  if we don't have to do it then we can decide when and how and where and then go to the rules to see what to do if there is a problem  correct? 9/21/05 20:26:31 Pete Wass-->Weighed rifles should be marked 9/21/05 20:26:34 David NMN Apple-->thank you 9/21/05 20:26:36 Jim Borden-->if a shooter shoots warm-up with overweight rifle and shoots a possible record--then the rifle is weighed--the record does not count 9/21/05 20:26:42 David j. halblom sr.-->wow! 9/21/05 20:26:50 Jim Borden-->they are marked on the weigh in sheet 9/21/05 20:26:51 Stephen Perry-->true Pete 9/21/05 20:27:10 Pete Wass-->Not the rifle itself though 9/21/05 20:27:21 Ashley Carr-->good night, got to go. 9/21/05 20:27:35 Pete Wass-->A sticker or something should be used 9/21/05 20:27:41 Stephen Perry-->night 9/21/05 20:27:42 Jim Borden-->right Pete--and maybe we have some dishonest people--buut I would like to believe no one is going to deliberately cheat, 9/21/05 20:27:44 bob beyer-->see ya, 9/21/05 20:28:22 Stephen Perry-->was ash a guy or gal, 9/21/05 20:28:38 Jim Borden-->Bill--are you still concerned about the weighing and inspecting thing?, 9/21/05 20:28:45 Pete Wass-->Well, a system makes everyone honest 9/21/05 20:28:56 Jim Borden-->No it does not Pete, 9/21/05 20:28:56 bob beyer-->are they marked on the sheet by s/n, 9/21/05 20:29:10 *** Grosbier-->contestant #, 9/21/05 20:29:11 Jim Borden-->they are marked on sheet by referee, 9/21/05 20:29:15 Pete Wass-->No Bob , by competitor number 9/21/05 20:29:15 Bill Sargent-->I hate to repeat- what weigh in sheet? We may or may not have one depending on what the refs for our particular match decide to check? Right?, 9/21/05 20:29:33 Stephen Perry-->NBRSA is guilty of not weighing at a lot of matches too, 9/21/05 20:29:55 Jim Borden-->Bill--that is right--seems like you have a burning issue here that will not let go--why not verbalize it?, 9/21/05 20:30:18 Pete Wass-->A grease pencil would work just fine, 9/21/05 20:30:31 David j. halblom sr.-->I must state that at ALL regional and National events, NBRSA, I have been weighed! 9/21/05 20:31:00 Jim Borden-->I believe referees are adults and we do not need more specificity on what needs checked and when it needs to be checked--we just need to have referees that DO check, 9/21/05 20:31:04 *** Grosbier-->WRITING ON a contestants rifle is not going to go over well Pete 9/21/05 20:31:13 Stephen Perry-->At Midland guns were weighed in HV only 9/21/05 20:31:23 Pete Wass-->A problem we face is many refs don't know the rules 9/21/05 20:31:37 David j. halblom sr.-->I believe that the range officer books suggest weigh in.  What more would you like? 9/21/05 20:31:51 Jim Borden-->Pete--guess I agree with that and that is why I picked the referees for last weekend 9/21/05 20:31:52 Pete Wass-->A grease pencil will never harm anything *** 9/21/05 20:32:06 David j. halblom sr.-->NBRSA uses a sticker to show that the rifle has been weighed 9/21/05 20:32:13 Dwayne Garfield-->suggests is the word 9/21/05 20:32:32 Stephen Perry-->at Nationals sometimes 9/21/05 20:32:41 Dwayne Garfield-->doesn't say has to 9/21/05 20:32:41 Bill Sargent-->absolutely not never been weighed (my rifle)  I'm new this year and love the sport but with only 4-5 br shooters here we all need to understand what to do.. Our only agenda is making the sport grow and having done this a lot in another sport I know that firm understanding of the rules is the only way to make people happy 9/21/05 20:32:51 Pete Wass-->Something should be done to make sure more people know the rllesif they are to be refs; like a testing procedure 9/21/05 20:33:13 David j. halblom sr.-->My current hunter gun has been to 4 Nationals.  There are 4 stickers on it 9/21/05 20:33:38 Pete Wass-->Good Point David H. 9/21/05 20:33:57 Stephen Perry-->Hunter true David Group not so. I have been to 8 Nats and only have 1 sticker 9/21/05 20:34:38 Jim Borden-->Pete--who is going to administer it?  I have worked on the board for 23 years and am getting mighty tired --volunteers are few and far in between----rules that require this kind of stuff need to come with a staffing solution cause it ain't going to be me 9/21/05 20:34:43 Leon Garfield-->I’m not good enough to go to a national.....LOL, 9/21/05 20:34:43 Bill Sargent-->if not happy at least coming back, 9/21/05 20:35:05 David NMN Apple-->Pete for administrator, 9/21/05 20:35:21 Jim Borden-->Bill-I agree consistency in administering the rules is important, 9/21/05 20:35:22 *** Grosbier-->anybody is good enough to go to a National Leon, 9/21/05 20:35:25 David j. halblom sr.-->Bill," you are absolutely correct.  It is incumbent upon the officials of each shoot to familiar with the rule book.  But they are ""volunteers"".  How do we force them to read?", 9/21/05 20:35:39 Pete Wass-->Perhaps we need to contract outside with someone. I don't mind paying more if things are tightened up, 9/21/05 20:35:48 Jim Borden-->The range officer guide that Michelle Sutton put together is a great guide for ranges, 9/21/05 20:35:53 David j. halblom sr.-->Leon, we are ALL GOOD Enough! 9/21/05 20:36:30 Leon Garfield-->So you think the rules need to be tightened up Pete, 9/21/05 20:36:35 Leon Garfield-->To loose, 9/21/05 20:36:46 Pete Wass-->I have been president of a volunteer Community Development org for 5 years. I am tired of it too but someone's got to do it and I have the desire still, 9/21/05 20:36:59 Bill Sargent-->jb,dh,  you don't.  You just let them know what is required and then when they do their best you support them or if they f---- up you also support them and educate them and move on 9/21/05 20:37:13 Jim Borden-->Good for you Pete--maybe you can put some energy into the IBS, 9/21/05 20:37:19 *** Grosbier-->Referees should be picked for their experience and based on your belief they can be unbiased in my opinion, 9/21/05 20:37:27 Pete Wass-->Yes I do and I think everyone needs to know them and that everyone running an event needs to know them, 9/21/05 20:37:28 David j. halblom sr.-->Pete, what you are describing is very similar the the SCCA's official school.  But I would offer that even it is rife with lack of knowledge/experience 9/21/05 20:37:44 Jim Borden-->Bill- I agree and that is what we do 9/21/05 20:38:01 Leon Garfield-->So when are you going to start Pete 9/21/05 20:38:09 Jim Borden-->I agree and that is what we do 9/21/05 20:38:17 Pete Wass-->Start what Leon ? 9/21/05 20:38:30 Leon Garfield-->tightening up the rules 9/21/05 20:38:49 Jim Borden-->I spent and hour and a half with the union county people Sunday night recapping things and gleaning the learning’s and improvements for the future 9/21/05 20:38:57 Pete Wass-->I thought this might be a beginning; hope it is anyway 9/21/05 20:39:19 Jim Borden-->Have not seen you do anything in that direction yet Pete 9/21/05 20:39:26 Bill Sargent-->yup a volunteer is worth 20 competitors every day 9/21/05 20:39:39 Pete Wass-->First there has to be the recognition that there is a need 9/21/05 20:39:45 Leon Garfield-->were out of volunteers bill 9/21/05 20:40:03 Jim Borden-->Leon-common story there 9/21/05 20:40:12 David NMN Apple-->a great start begins with an educated shooter. if the existing rules are not being followed, there is a remedy/procedure for correction 9/21/05 20:40:15 Leon Garfield-->I agree 9/21/05 20:40:47 Bill Sargent-->lg then we'll find one or take turns not shooting or whatever if we really want to do this 9/21/05 20:40:51 Pete Wass-->What would you have me do Jim ?, 9/21/05 20:40:59 David j. halblom sr.-->To all, how many competitors do you know who have a current rule book?????? 9/21/05 20:41:03 Jim Borden-->get started on your rewrites, 9/21/05 20:41:13 Leon Garfield-->IF I can't shoot I am done, I am in it to shoot 9/21/05 20:41:23 David j. halblom sr.-->And submit them for 25 added signatures, 9/21/05 20:41:29 Pete Wass-->That will come in due time Jim., 9/21/05 20:41:30 David j. halblom sr.-->signatures, 9/21/05 20:41:33 bob beyer-->I would just as soon volunteer for something, but I live 100 miles from the nearest range, and also the nearest fellow shooter. 9/21/05 20:41:50 Stephen Perry-->I do David, 9/21/05 20:41:53 Jim Borden-->Pete--you are in for an education on ambiguity......, 9/21/05 20:42:05 Pete Wass-->The internet will be of enormous help here., 9/21/05 20:42:10 Dwayne Garfield-->Well I’ve been an Inspector for 30 plus years and I can be unbiased had a lot of experience, I can insp. your guns. no allows. 9/21/05 20:42:31 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--that is good, 9/21/05 20:42:48 Dwayne Garfield-->I have ?, 9/21/05 20:43:05 Leon Garfield-->Jim if someone shows up with a gun that don't come into spec can they still compete but not get any recognition by IBS, 9/21/05 20:43:06 Pete Wass-->I hope there will be interest all over the country in having a good solid base to work from, 9/21/05 20:43:07 Bill Sargent-->dg we don't have to inspect guns in any way.  It's up to us what to do. 9/21/05 20:43:17 Jim Borden-->Leon--yes 9/21/05 20:43:17 *** Grosbier-->yes 9/21/05 20:43:34 Dwayne Garfield-->You allow so many ozs over  weight, but no allowance on width  why 9/21/05 20:43:34 Leon Garfield-->so he can shoot for the daily plaque but no points 9/21/05 20:43:40 Bill Sargent-->k I mean up to the refs at the match what to do 9/21/05 20:43:44 Jim Borden-->Bill--all guns must be inspected----it is ref decision what to inspect 9/21/05 20:43:56 *** Grosbier-->there is an allowance for scale error 9/21/05 20:44:00 Stephen Perry-->1 oz dwayne 9/21/05 20:44:00 Leon Garfield-->Right I think bill is confused about that 9/21/05 20:44:06 *** Grosbier-->not for rifle weight 9/21/05 20:44:19 Jim Borden-->he can not get plaque either--no awards-no money--no points--shoot fo rfun only 9/21/05 20:44:26 Pete Wass-->One must first know what to inspect however 9/21/05 20:44:31 Leon Garfield-->oik thanks Jim 9/21/05 20:44:32 Stephen Perry-->didn't we hash this out before *** 9/21/05 20:44:44 Dwayne Garfield-->no allowance for mic error 9/21/05 20:45:04 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--that is correct 9/21/05 20:45:29 Dwayne Garfield-->I make my living with a mic and verier 9/21/05 20:45:37 Pete Wass-->Has anyone ever seen a barrel taper checked ? 9/21/05 20:45:37 Dwayne Garfield-->vernier 9/21/05 20:45:37 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--me too 9/21/05 20:45:38 Leon Garfield-->so 3.0000 is it on stock width 9/21/05 20:46:01 Jim Borden-->Leon--no 3 inches is stock width which has been taken to be 3.0000 9/21/05 20:46:04 *** Grosbier-->I have 9/21/05 20:46:25 *** Grosbier-->seen barrel taper checked 9/21/05 20:46:30 Leon Garfield',"'Right Jim That is 3"" no MORE", 9/21/05 20:46:35 Dwayne Garfield-->then I say no tol. on weight 9/21/05 20:46:48 Pete Wass-->I never have or ever seen a stock checked 9/21/05 20:47:07 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--then write a proposed rule and get the signatures--not sure what this vendetta on weight is all about 9/21/05 20:47:19 David j. halblom sr.-->Unless you are going to get the scales certified prior to EACH match, the scale must have an allowance 9/21/05 20:47:32 Jim Borden-->I have seen lots of stocks checked--even saw some fancy paint jobs filed to make under 3 inches 9/21/05 20:47:33 Dwayne Garfield-->To much BS to go through 9/21/05 20:48:00 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--if it is too much BS--then I guess it will have to stay the way it is 9/21/05 20:48:07 David j. halblom sr.-->night guys.  MAX 9/21/05 20:48:21 Leon Garfield-->mine weighs 10lbs 14ozs and stock is 2.750 so I am good to go anyway 9/21/05 20:48:25 *** Grosbier-->compliance with rules is not BS it is what gives a level playing field 9/21/05 20:48:45 Pete Wass-->Thank you *** 9/21/05 20:48:50 Jim Borden-->Leon--looks like you shoot HV right? 9/21/05 20:49:17 Leon Garfield-->IS IBS going to supply clubs with a template for checking the stock to make sure it is the right angle   and Yes Jim I do 9/21/05 20:49:25 Jim Borden-->I think Dwayne is saying the change of rule is too much BS or at least that is what I understood him to say 9/21/05 20:49:40 Bill Sargent-->I’m NOT CONFUSED.  the GUNS SHALL BE INSPECTED BUT IS UP TO THE REFS WHAT WILL BE INSPECTED.  IF SOMETHING THEY INSPECT IS NOT OK THEN THEY PROCEED TO THE RULE BOOK TO DETERMINE WHAT TO DO.  Sorry about that my coffee is kicking in. Again my understanding is that if our refs decide not to measure anything that is ok? 9/21/05 20:50:04 Leon Garfield-->NO bill 9/21/05 20:50:05 Jim Borden-->Bill--not really--in other words no 9/21/05 20:50:24 Leon Garfield-->they have to check something period 9/21/05 20:50:34 Jim Borden-->let me paste it here again--read real carefully sentence 2. 9/21/05 20:50:34 Leon Garfield-->they can determine WHAT to check 9/21/05 20:50:41 Jim Borden',"'I. Inspection of Equipment" "1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches",, "2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line",,,, 9/21/05 20:51:10 Jim Borden',"'2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line", preferably as the competitors leave the firing line but at the Referees' discretion, during the firing of the matches 9/21/05 20:51:14 Bill Sargent-->no kidding but what they do is up to them, 9/21/05 20:51:15 David NMN Apple-->I feel that should be done at all matches, 9/21/05 20:51:33 Leon Garfield-->but they can not decide as you said to check nothing, 9/21/05 20:51:34 Jim Borden-->Bill--that is right and I see nothing wrong with that--do you?, 9/21/05 20:51:49 *** Grosbier-->but according to the rules they should do something as opposed to nothing, 9/21/05 20:51:57 Jim Borden-->***--that is correct, 9/21/05 20:52:24 Bill Sargent-->not at all  what I'm saying if they choose to not measure anything that is ok    unless you want to define inspect, 9/21/05 20:52:24 Jim Borden-->For first 7 to 8 years I competed--my rifles were weighed at every match I went to it, 9/21/05 20:52:35 Leon Garfield-->Guess I will have to come to penn so I can see how inspections work for I have never seen it, 9/21/05 20:53:00 Jim Borden-->inspect means inspect-----they have to check something---, 9/21/05 20:53:25 Leon Garfield-->WOW, 9/21/05 20:53:29 Jim Borden-->Leon--that does not mean they are not done--where have you shot?, 9/21/05 20:53:30 *** Grosbier-->Not really Leon I think the point is things have become to Lax almost everywhere, 9/21/05 20:53:32 bob beyer-->stick finger in mag of hunter gun, 9/21/05 20:53:49 Leon Garfield-->Maine and of coarse VT 9/21/05 20:53:52 Jim Borden-->bob-yes that is an inspection 9/21/05 20:53:59 Leon Garfield-->which hell we don't know what we are doing 9/21/05 20:54:02 *** Grosbier-->I as a referee have done that Bob 9/21/05 20:54:13 bob beyer-->absolutely 9/21/05 20:54:25 Jim Borden-->Leon--hopefully some of this dialogue will help that change 9/21/05 20:54:33 *** Grosbier-->you can learn Leon it is not that difficult 9/21/05 20:54:58 Leon Garfield-->I will say that we are going to have a meeting this winter to figure out what we need and how to do it so we will be up to snuff..... 9/21/05 20:55:07 bob beyer-->it doesn't sound like it is 9/21/05 20:55:11 Jim Borden-->I am more than willing to talk to any club director and help with this topic--I just will not do it for them 9/21/05 20:55:33 Jim Borden-->Leon, Bill-Dwayne--are you coming to winter meeting? 9/21/05 20:55:35 Bill Sargent',"'hmm - ok our refs can decide what as long as an ""inspection"" is done", 9/21/05 20:55:35 Leon Garfield-->And as I told you the other night Jim I think I have it all figured out and know what to do. I just wish every club would do it like I have told you already 9/21/05 20:55:47 Jim Borden-->Bill-you got it 9/21/05 20:55:51 Leon Garfield-->HEY HEY BILL 9/21/05 20:56:07 Leon Garfield-->I have not problem with the rulesssssssssssss 9/21/05 20:56:15 Bill Sargent-->k Jim that makes it easy, 9/21/05 20:56:39 Jim Borden-->and as I said before I would SUGGEST that one of the inspections be a weigh in, 9/21/05 20:56:40 David NMN Apple-->Leon you are right., 9/21/05 20:56:47 Leon Garfield-->I am a committee chairmen for the united steelworkers trust me we have contracts and have to follow them so I know how it is done, 9/21/05 20:57:28 Jim Borden-->Bill-Leon and Dwayne are you guys coming to winter meeting?, 9/21/05 20:57:36 Dwayne Garfield-->No, 9/21/05 20:57:48 Jim Borden-->Dwayne--why not?, 9/21/05 20:57:56 bob beyer-->where is it this year Jim, 9/21/05 20:58:06 David NMN Apple-->Harrisburg, 9/21/05 20:58:08 Bill Sargent-->our refs can do their thing and we have no argument with what another set of refs at another range may choose to do.  I have absolutely no problem with that procedure., 9/21/05 20:58:14 Jim Borden-->Immense opportunity to learn and interact, 9/21/05 20:58:23 Dwayne Garfield-->To far for old Dad, 9/21/05 20:58:27 Leon Garfield-->I would like to thank you all for an interesting chat, I would like to come to penn Jim but don't know at this time if I will be able to, I don't get much time off from work and like to keep it for shooting if I can.....Once again thanks 9/21/05 20:59:02 Jim Borden-->Leon--but part of running matches is learning what it is all about and it will make the shooting go easier, 9/21/05 20:59:23 Leon Garfield-->Reed is the match Director I am just a volunteer, 9/21/05 20:59:26 bob beyer-->I’ll be in fla., 9/21/05 20:59:31 Leon Garfield-->he makes the call I follow 9/21/05 20:59:32 bob beyer-->long way 9/21/05 21:00:02 Leon Garfield-->I know what you want done Jim as I explained already 9/21/05 21:00:42 Leon Garfield-->Ours shoots have gone great, the only thing that has been missing is the inspection of epuip 9/21/05 21:00:58 bob beyer-->can we buy a current rule book from Joan 9/21/05 21:01:09 Leon Garfield-->and people getting up from there benches after they shoot 9/21/05 21:01:27 *** Grosbier-->you are not alone Leon 9/21/05 21:02:01 Leon Garfield-->other than that I think we are close to what you want done, I may be wrong but all the feedback we have gotten has been good. IF there is something people need to bring it to our attention 9/21/05 21:02:07 Leon Garfield-->I know *** 9/21/05 21:02:13 Jim Borden-->Bob--you can download rulebook from website for most current--or Joan can mail you one 9/21/05 21:02:25 Leon Garfield-->Mike 9/21/05 21:02:32 mike ricklefs-->hi all 9/21/05 21:02:35 bob beyer-->I would like a book\ 9/21/05 21:02:42 Leon Garfield-->Once again Jim and All thanks for the info and chat 9/21/05 21:02:54 bob beyer-->what’s her biz. no. 9/21/05 21:03:00 Jim Borden-->Leon--I have only heard good stuff about VT--except the wind next to bench 10--can you fix that ? :) 9/21/05 21:03:28 Leon Garfield-->LOL   tell Jim he can do it........LOl 9/21/05 21:03:39 Jim Borden-->Bob--email a request to joan@bordenrifles.com and she will send you one--make sure you include your current address Posted Sep 21 2005, 12:28 PM by Stan Ware with no comments Filed under: IBS, Rule Book Chat

• IBS Rule Book Chat - Transcript 3

  9/19/05 19:56:49 Jim Borden-->hi all, 9/19/05 19:57:02 Jim Borden-->Leon--what's up?, 9/19/05 19:57:12 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Hi Jim, we have a little question re: a DQ at the Nationals," during a ""cease fire"" command..." 9/19/05 19:57:14 *** Grosbier-->we are discussing disqualification for firing during the cease fire command, 9/19/05 19:57:18 Leon Garfield-->*** was telling us someone got disqualified at shooting during the command commence fire, It was my understanding that we had till the e in fire 9/19/05 19:57:40 Jim Borden',"'the shooter admitted to firing after the word ""fire""" 9/19/05 19:57:49 *** Grosbier-->no during cease fire, 9/19/05 19:57:50 Leon Garfield-->ok didn't hear it hat way, 9/19/05 19:57:52 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->No question then..., 9/19/05 19:57:59 Leon Garfield-->DQ, 9/19/05 19:58:19 Leon Garfield-->that was easy 9/19/05 19:58:41 Jim Borden-->he aid he had finger on trigger during commence and did not get it off until after fire--or at least that was the way it was reported to me 9/19/05 19:59:09 nickloy-->Too all the guys on in this room ,I am not going to stay for the whole session, but I have a question for Jim about scoring a VFS target. If the Official scorer cannot make a call as to the score,  can the plug be removed and then replaced  or once the plug is removed can it not be replaced 9/19/05 19:59:13 Bill Sargent-->cease-bang-fire is ok or not 9/19/05 19:59:21 Jim Borden-->there should have been at least two more dq's--one for bolt in rifle in cart at firing line 9/19/05 19:59:33 Leon Garfield-->Ok thanks Jim that is what I thought you had told us we had till the e in fire 9/19/05 19:59:41 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->One was to watch his clock better eh... and you can only plus it once... 9/19/05 19:00:15 Francis Becigneul-->Early crowd 9/19/05 19:00:22 Dwayne Garfield-->we get20-30 deg below 9/19/05 20:00:00 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->plug 9/19/05 20:00:05 Jim Borden-->nick   intent is that it be in target and stay there until refs have ruled on it 9/19/05 20:00:25 nickloy-->Jim,'; 9/19/05 20:00:27 Leon Garfield-->OK Bill 9/19/05 20:00:43 Jim Borden-->yes bill--that is ok 9/19/05 20:00:54 Jim Borden-->kind of close--but ok 9/19/05 20:00:57 *** Grosbier-->so you need to call a referee every time you plug a target ? 9/19/05 20:01:21 Jim Borden-->if you believe your judgment on the plug will be questioned--the answer is yes 9/19/05 20:01:21 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Yup, or else why plug it?'; 9/19/05 20:01:27 Leon Garfield-->I don't think I will ever come close to the commence.....lol 9/19/05 20:02:15 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->So what do you have planned tonight Jim? 9/19/05 20:02:15 Jim Borden-->if the plug has been removed and the score gets protested--then obviously the plug has to be reinserted 9/19/05 20:02:36 nickloy-->we have had a large number of clubs who will remove the plug or go back and re-score the target by replacing the plug. Can this be clarified in the rule book too stop this practice 9/19/05 20:02:38 Leon Garfield-->that does happen Jim,'; 9/19/05 20:02:52 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)',"'And the target marked a ""P"" for plugged...';", 9/19/05 20:03:26 nickloy-->Keith,"yes the target is marked with a ""p""';" 9/19/05 20:03:33 *** Grosbier-->the rulebook says plug not to be removed until a decision is made it does not say a referee decision has been made, 9/19/05 20:03:43 Jim Borden-->nick--I think the intent is rather clear --if you would like to see a more specific rule written--you can write a proposed change and get 25 signatures and submit for addition to meeting agenda, 9/19/05 20:04:05 nickloy-->***,Can you tell were it is in the rule book 9/19/05 20:04:15 *** Grosbier-->I will look, 9/19/05 20:04:33 Leon Garfield-->If a scorer plugs your target and you think it should have been an X, you go to the refs and they have to insert the plug to check it, that is the way it is'; 9/19/05 20:04:45 Jim Borden-->Correct Leon, 9/19/05 20:04:49 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Myself, being a Cdn, I like the NBRSA template vs. the plug... you can put the template on it 100 times and it does not chg the hole..'; 9/19/05 20:05:18 Jim Borden-->I LOVE the template--it is also more accurate as it does not drift with how the hole is punched in the target, 9/19/05 20:05:26 nickloy-->Jim I have looked at the rule book and cannot find any reference to the plug remaining in the target, 9/19/05 20:05:52 *** Grosbier-->Page 19 section F2 of online rulebook, 9/19/05 20:06:02 nickloy-->Jim, were can this template be found 9/19/05 20:06:18 Jim Borden',"'2) Scoring plug is to be placed in target by Scorer and not removed until a decision is made.  If Scorer cannot arrive at a decision then it is to be made by the Referees before the plug is removed.  At this time the letters ""PR"" are to be placed by the score. If the plug is used and the Referees are not needed"," the letter ""P"" is used.';", 9/19/05 20:06:39 Leon Garfield-->IBS shoot has to be scored with plug, IF you want to use the template you will have to make a rule change 9/19/05 20:06:49 *** Grosbier-->true, 9/19/05 20:07:03 Jim Borden-->Bill Meuser from St Louis has a great template --different than NBRSA and correct Leon, 9/19/05 20:07:14 Jim Borden-->Now--on to the agenda for tonight, 9/19/05 20:08:11 Jim Borden-->I would like to take a few moments to review some things I observed this past weekend 9/19/05 20:08:38 nickloy-->Jim,Iam going out my truck and getting my copy of the rule book and make sure the clubs follow the rules.'; 9/19/05 20:08:55 Jim Borden-->It is obvious to me that some clubs have apparently been lax at enforcing some rules because too many competitors had sloppy habits 9/19/05 20:10:07 Jim Borden-->I shot relay 1--had a competitor from relay #2 setting his equipment up on bench next to me while relay 1 was setting up and then he would leave his gun there--that is NOT ok 9/19/05 20:10:36 Jim Borden-->I challenged him on it and he quit setting his gun on it but continued to set up his equipment. 9/19/05 20:11:01 *** Grosbier-->interesting point 9/19/05 20:11:04 Francis Becigneul-->Absolute No No 9/19/05 20:11:37 Jim Borden-->a competitor from really #2 changed a scope on Saturday Night and then sat down on a bench on relay 1 on Sunday morning expecting to sight in and could not understand why it was not o.k. for him to do that 9/19/05 20:11:55 Jim Borden-->I told him he had to do it in HIS 10 minutes just like any of us on really 1 9/19/05 20:12:48 Jim Borden-->same competitor routinely went in front of the bench to pick up his rests and bags--no need for them to be there in first place just look at pictures on IBS webpage of Union county firing line 9/19/05 20:13:34 Ron Baldner-->was there no warm up match? 9/19/05 20:13:47 Jim Borden-->I did not have him DQ'd as I was already getting to be called the hard a___.  What really surprised me is that he was not challenged by other competitors-who were running around whispering about it 9/19/05 20:14:01 Jim Borden-->Ron--it was the warm-up 9/19/05 20:14:22 Ron Baldner-->thanks 9/19/05 20:14:24 David NMN Apple-->2 hours from warm-up to relay 1 9/19/05 20:14:51 *** Grosbier-->not quite David but close 9/19/05 20:15:00 Bill Sargent-->Jim leaving the bench and cleaning up your stuff before the end of a relay is ok? 9/19/05 20:15:19 Jim Borden-->I seem to hear a lot about how rules need to be followed and enforced and that they need to be more specific and then watch those that are giving me the feedback sit back and do nothing to challenge inappropriate behavior--that is NOT ok 9/19/05 20:15:40 Francis Becigneul-->No. Bill 9/19/05 20:16:13 Jim Borden-->bill--that is club discretion--but highly suggested that everyone stay put until really is finished.  Union County at MY request instituted that everyone stay seated until really was finished 9/19/05 20:16:36 Francis Becigneul-->In the name of safety and courtesy 9/19/05 20:16:40 Jim Borden-->David--Club has already received my feedback about pace and we are going to work with them on correction 9/19/05 20:17:22 Bill Sargent-->k thanks 9/19/05 20:17:27 Jim Borden-->Dave or ***--any observations that either of you would like to make regarding the weekend? 9/19/05 20:17:43 Jim Borden-->Where are Greg and Pete and Jim? 9/19/05 20:17:55 Leon Garfield-->still traveling I think 9/19/05 20:18:30 David NMN Apple-->Jim. I would have liked a more timely match. no inspections other than the weigh in 9/19/05 20:18:35 *** Grosbier-->4 relays was intolerable and kept 50 people for several extra hours for convenience of a couple people shooting 2 guns 9/19/05 20:18:57 Rod Franzius-->I talked with Greg around 5 this afternoon and they were in Kennebunk, Me and there was heavy traffic due to an accident on the turnpike. They were going to detour on Route 1.'; 9/19/05 20:19:22 David NMN Apple-->running an ill coordinated match is no reason to penalize a shooter wanting  to shoot two guns 9/19/05 20:19:22 Jim Borden-->Dave--what do you mean by no inspections? 9/19/05 20:19:55 David NMN Apple-->lifting gun from front rest, measuring front stock width.'; 9/19/05 20:20:06 Jim Borden-->ah--but adding relays for convenience of a couple of shooters is not ok either--3 relays could have handled things greatly, 9/19/05 20:20:28 *** Grosbier-->easily, 9/19/05 20:20:28 David NMN Apple-->correct., 9/19/05 20:20:40 Jim Borden-->Dave--I think inspections are fine--keeps people on their toes, 9/19/05 20:20:51 Leon Garfield-->That is the rules check, check, check'; 9/19/05 20:20:57 David NMN Apple-->I agree and would like to see them actually take place, 9/19/05 20:21:08 Jim Borden-->We had a problem with range officer pace and the target crew was different each day and had to be trained--that will not happen there again, 9/19/05 20:22:06 Jim Borden-->I was hoping Pete would be here as I was adamant that empty targets not be covered., 9/19/05 20:22:21 Jim Borden-->in 28 competitive years of shooting I had never crossfired, 9/19/05 20:22:32 David NMN Apple-->welcome to the club  buddy, 9/19/05 20:22:41 *** Grosbier-->Frankly I was surprised they had one of the most experienced range officers around but a unnecessary cease fire was called by mistake., 9/19/05 20:22:50 Jim Borden-->on Sunday after setting a pace for my 20 year old record for two matches I fired on an empty target next to me, 9/19/05 20:23:01 Jim Borden-->I am sure Pete is wondering if I still feel the same way, 9/19/05 20:23:10 *** Grosbier-->unfortunately I have done same not unnecessary but wrong type, 9/19/05 20:23:24 Jim Borden-->The answer is YES--it was MY responsibility to be on my target, 9/19/05 20:23:32 Francis Becigneul-->right, 9/19/05 20:23:33 Leon Garfield-->I have to run but before I leave I would like to say, Any of the shoots I have been to the rules are LOOSE!!!!!  If rules are to be followed it is something all clubs must do so that people don't stop going to the ones that to enforce them..... 9/19/05 20:23:42 *** Grosbier-->sure wish Pete was here, 9/19/05 20:24:17 Jim Borden-->Leon--I am going to be traveling the score circuit moiré next year and the rules will BE enforced, 9/19/05 20:24:28 Francis Becigneul-->good, 9/19/05 20:24:34 David NMN Apple-->finally, 9/19/05 20:24:49 Jim Borden-->I talked with randy F and Gary L about my concerns and asked them to get the ropes tightened, 9/19/05 20:24:56 Leon Garfield-->We have not done the best at it but we feel if we do we will be shooting alone....Thanks Jim, 9/19/05 20:25:38 Jim Borden-->many that come to your range have expressed to me that they want rules enforced--they will have to get involved at causing them to be enforced, 9/19/05 20:26:07 Jim Borden-->ready to talk rifle rules?, 9/19/05 20:26:15 Francis Becigneul-->Sure, 9/19/05 20:26:17 *** Grosbier-->go to it, 9/19/05 20:26:18 Leon Garfield-->We can do it with no problem, I was the only one at the states that weighed there rifle, Thanks Jim I have to run'; 9/19/05 20:26:29 Jim Borden-->thank you Leon, 9/19/05 20:26:38 Bill Sargent-->agree Leon we also need clarification re: what must be enforced and what can be local choice, 9/19/05 20:26:49 *** Grosbier-->I brought certified weights but they were not used, 9/19/05 20:27:02 Jim Borden-->***--why not, 9/19/05 20:27:13 Leon Garfield-->Yes *** they were we set the scale with them 9/19/05 20:27:23 Leon Garfield-->before I weighed my gun 9/19/05 20:27:38 *** Grosbier-->I really cannot answer that Jim I simply informed them I had made them available 9/19/05 20:27:51 Jim Borden-->you mean at Union County? 9/19/05 20:27:58 *** Grosbier-->no Vermont 9/19/05 20:28:30 Jim Borden-->any questions on HV, LV or SP rifles?'; 9/19/05 20:28:34 Leon Garfield-->we did use them but didn't see any guns 9/19/05 20:28:45 *** Grosbier-->no organized weighing of rifles was done to my knowledge 9/19/05 20:28:56 Jim Borden-->Jim----you had ? on stocks other night--now is time for it 9/19/05 20:29:11 bob beyer-->I never knew that there were scales in Vt. 9/19/05 20:29:38 Jim Borden-->Jim G --you there? 9/19/05 20:29:41 David NMN Apple-->Jim. how far back from the front of the stock is the width dimension measured? 9/19/05 20:29:47 *** Grosbier-->do other portions of group shooting rules apply to score shooting other than varmint rifle specs 9/19/05 20:29:55 Jim Borden-->anywhere David 9/19/05 20:30:00 JIM GOODY-->HOWDY, is the e-board going to make a ruling on the STOCK CHECKER ISSUE  in the near future'; 9/19/05 20:30:02 David NMN Apple-->thank you 9/19/05 20:30:40 Jim Borden-->Jim--actually no--the group committee has the checker--has used it some and will be using it--it works--no decision needed other than that 9/19/05 20:30:47 David NMN Apple-->how can the power of say a 6 power scope be checked ? 9/19/05 20:31:19 JIM GOODY-->why the group comm and not the score comm? 9/19/05 20:31:26 JIM GOODY-->as well 9/19/05 20:31:40 Jim Borden-->David--that is one we have taken for granted for ages--we check to see it is set at 6x and we used to look through each htr rifle scope to ensure it was not boosted 9/19/05 20:31:54 Francis Becigneul-->Yes there does have to be a decision made re: the stock checker. The rule book gives the method for checking the taper of the stock and the checker isn't in the rule book 9/19/05 20:32:13 Jim Borden-->Jim--cause the score committee rep at meeting said --you guys tell us where you come out with it (Gary L) 9/19/05 20:32:36 JIM GOODY-->hmmmmm 9/19/05 20:32:52 Jim Borden-->The checker actually uses the rulebook technique to find the angle 9/19/05 20:33:08 David NMN Apple-->we have a gun around here that has set numerous world records in VH and the owner never had to have it weighed, checked dimensionally in the stock or case and the scope was never verified. HE will tell you this and DOES NOT think it is right'; 9/19/05 20:33:17 Francis Becigneul-->Doesn't matter. The rule book says rod guide, rod tape measure.'; 9/19/05 20:33:22 JIM GOODY-->it just seems to me that sometime the checker issue will get ugly at a match 9/19/05 20:33:28 frank in the laurels-->wow..it's a luv fest 9/19/05 20:33:40 frank in the laurels-->what a line up 9/19/05 20:34:03 *** Grosbier-->this is the IBS , 9/19/05 20:34:04 frank in the laurels-->what the fight about tonight !! 9/19/05 20:34:19 Dwayne Garfield-->it got real quiet 9/19/05 20:34:22 Jim Borden-->Francis--show me where it says that--it lays out the angle and gives no procedure in rulebook 9/19/05 20:34:32 Francis Becigneul-->I'm trying to start a fight regarding the use of the stock checker. 9/19/05 20:34:33 frank in the laurels-->rules...what rules..no need, just put holes in the target and be happy'; 9/19/05 20:34:56 John Scopelliti',"'I think it would be good to use it as an ""informational device"" on its forst intro.';", 9/19/05 20:35:01 *** Grosbier-->please Frank we are trying to hold a serious discussion here 9/19/05 20:35:07 Jim Borden-->John--that is the intent 9/19/05 20:35:08 frank in the laurels-->ok 9/19/05 20:35:10 Bill Sargent-->Jim would there be a problem with going to a system where the winning guns ie any that get points are checked after the match and save on the trouble of checking everyone? 9/19/05 20:35:16 Admin-->Frank.... Jim Borden is going thru the rule book 9/19/05 20:35:32 Francis Becigneul-->Group shooting rules B. 2 9/19/05 20:35:53 Ron Baldner-->who is frank? 9/19/05 20:36:03 *** Grosbier-->unfortunately Bill that creates its own problem when a person is disqualified after winning 9/19/05 20:36:04 frank in the laurels-->just a idiot 9/19/05 20:36:18 Jim Borden-->Francis--says nothing about how to measure it--only lays out the maximum line or minimum angle 9/19/05 20:36:30 frank in the laurels-->this is way to serious, later'; 9/19/05 20:36:37 *** Grosbier-->not a wrong action but creates bad feelings 9/19/05 20:37:05 Jim Borden-->***--I agree--I hate it when rifles are checked after a match has started (after M1) 9/19/05 20:37:39 Bill Sargent-->dg only if you are DQ’d  have the equip available for anyone to check their guns if they want but only measure the winners 9/19/05 20:37:39 JIM GOODY-->Jim has the checker been used at a match and the results of the test made known to the group of reffs? 9/19/05 20:38:11 *** Grosbier-->a shooter is still responsible for his rifle but there are a lot less bad feelings when they get a chance to fix it 9/19/05 20:38:31 Jim Borden-->having a toe formed by a straight line drawn from the toe of a substantially vertical butt with a 13 1/4 inch pull starting at a point at least 4 inches below the axis of the bore and extending forward to the centerline of the barrel at a point no more than 18 inches forward of the boltface 9/19/05 20:39:19 Bill Sargent-->as I said voluntary measure and fix before  if u don't do it and have a problem how can you feel bad 9/19/05 20:39:30 Jim Borden-->above is what rulebook says about stock taper --says nothing on how to measure it and George's fixture measures it--I think we should have two or three--at least one for score committee and one for group committee 9/19/05 20:40:04 Jim Borden-->Francis--what is your concern with the fixture? 9/19/05 20:40:32 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)-->Do the EDGE stocks pass Jim? They have an almost flat butt.. and no taper... 9/19/05 20:40:49 Francis Becigneul-->It was used in Dublin and the rifle could be moved to read whatever angle the ref wanted it to read. It was an NBRSA match. 9/19/05 20:41:20 John Scopelliti-->Different fixture. 9/19/05 20:41:24 Jim Borden-->Keith --yes as long as the barreled action is bedded parallel with top of stock 9/19/05 20:41:27 Francis Becigneul-->Slightly 9/19/05 20:41:45 Francis Becigneul-->John 9/19/05 20:41:58 Jim Borden-->the one I had here worked fine and rifle did not have to be moved to read the accepted angle 9/19/05 20:42:08 Francis Becigneul-->The NBRSA says the rod guide etc. and that is where I am confused. 9/19/05 20:42:16 Jim Borden-->ok 9/19/05 20:43:20 Jim Borden',"'We need to get more people involved in enforcing the rules and being part of the ""fix""';", 9/19/05 20:43:53 Pete Wass-->Folks 9/19/05 20:44:16 Jim Borden',"'when I get involved at match I am hard nose--but on phone or here --it is ""this should be done""--well all of us need to be doing it';", 9/19/05 20:44:18 JIM GOODY-->Match directors have to be on board and make it happen   ,imho'; 9/19/05 20:44:29 Jim Borden-->Jim--I agree 9/19/05 20:45:08 JIM GOODY-->as a match director you will follow the rule book or be gone!!!!!!! 9/19/05 20:45:11 Jim Borden-->Pete--? for you--why did you not challenge the individual at Union County who routinely went in front of bench to pick up his rest and bags? 9/19/05 20:45:16 John Scopelliti-->A good idea would be to announce in advance that all stocks would be fixture checked at the match.  Then there is no surprise or confusion. 9/19/05 20:45:48 Pete Wass-->I didn't see him do it Jim. 9/19/05 20:45:56 Francis Becigneul-->And put the fixture in the rule book 9/19/05 20:46:00 Jim Borden-->oh--but I watched you watch him 9/19/05 20:46:11 John Scopelliti-->Good! 9/19/05 20:46:27 Pete Wass-->I have no clue what you are talking about Jim 9/19/05 20:46:55 Jim Borden-->Francis--the fixture does not belong in rulebook anymore tha that we have to use a set of Mitutoyo micrometers to measure stock width--imho 9/19/05 20:47:14 *** Grosbier-->I don't really see the need to spell out what methods can be used to measure compliance with a written rule 9/19/05 20:47:15 Jim Borden-->trying to understand why you think the fixture needs to be in the rulebook 9/19/05 20:47:16 Bill Sargent-->jg agree ALL match directors need to be on board for enforcement to work 9/19/05 20:47:21 Francis Becigneul-->WE have allowed the R.O.s to get lax. WE can put them back on track. 9/19/05 20:47:59 Pete Wass-->How do we measure 6-X scope power ? 9/19/05 20:48:08 Jim Borden-->too late Pete 9/19/05 20:48:21 Jim Borden-->sorry--we talked that one before 9/19/05 20:48:27 Francis Becigneul-->When I saw another's rifle moved around in the fixture, I disliked it immediately. It was not held stable.'; 9/19/05 20:49:05 Jim Borden-->then we need to address that issue directly Francis---putting fixture in rulebook will not eliminate your concern 9/19/05 20:49:16 Pete Wass-->Sorry, I was trying to get home!!!!'; 9/19/05 20:49:20 Francis Becigneul-->Again, I'm confusing NBRSA and IBS. NBRSA spells out the procedure to measures a stock and the fixture isn't the method.'; 9/19/05 20:49:27 Jim Borden-->Pete--I know no ill intent meant 9/19/05 20:49:46 *** Grosbier-->I am sure the transcript will be posted tomorrow Pete 9/19/05 20:49:54 Jim Borden-->IBS has stayed away from how to measure and has placed the limits on the dimensions 9/19/05 20:50:01 Francis Becigneul-->Okay 9/19/05 20:50:05 Francis Becigneul-->Sorry, 9/19/05 20:50:35 Jim Borden-->Francis--we still need to take you r input on stability of rifle in fixture so that it can be used, 9/19/05 20:50:55 Francis Becigneul-->That would be fine with me., 9/19/05 20:51:33 Jim Borden-->give me a call sometime b4 winter meeting so I can understand the complete concern (rifle damage,