IBS Chat Transcripts

A chat session with IBS president Jim Borden covering IBS rules.

Transcript 1

19:58:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” hi all
19:58:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin “–>” I would like to Welcome everyone to the Chat line tonight and Jim you may start anytime your ready.
19:58:24 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” thanks to Stan Ware for allowing this to happen and to Jim Borden for Helping us all out
19:58:37 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” hello Admin
19:58:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” yes thanks Stan and Jim
19:58:59 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” wb Leon
19:59:03 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Better late than never
19:59:13 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius “–>” Leon get an Apple’
19:59:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” no keep getting booted
19:59:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” What I thought we would do is visit why we have rules and begin with the objectives of the IBS
19:59:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” Jim you able to come to VT on the weekend?’
20:00:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Mike
20:00:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Reed–I will not be there–having Kidney zapped on Friday and can not travel for a day or two
20:00:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” wb Mike
20:00:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” My prayers are with you …
20:01:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Yes indeed from Canada eh…
20:01:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” in the 50s BR was loosely run without any rules pertaining to the rifles-attendance was great at first
20:01:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” As rifles developed and the “iron Monsters” came on the scene attendance dwindled as it became an equipment race’
20:02:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” shoots in the mid 50s had 150 to 200 competitors—by the end of the 50s it was down to less than 20 or so at many matches
20:02:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” The varmint Classes arose out of this mess to get enthusiasm back into the sport and get attendance back up
20:03:29 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” what was the organization called then?
20:03:55 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” so—-when many say we after the ultimate in rifle precision and that rules should be bent or modified to allow this or that or to get modern–I can just say–let the rules be changed by the process that is in place that we will review in a future session
20:04:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Paul–it was the NBRSA until 1970
20:04:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” ok
20:05:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Al
20:05:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” I thought we would quickly look at the objectives of the IBS and then move into some highlights from the Tournament procedures section if that is ok with everyone
20:05:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” lets do it
20:05:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” does anyone have any questions about the 4 objectives of the IBS?
20:06:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Sounds like a no
20:06:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” I think they are obvious–but if there are no objections lets move on to Rests
20:06:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” pretty clearly stated
20:07:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Much ado has been made of bags in recent years–but the flavor of the rule is to at least maintain something that looks and feels like a sand bag and limit us to not having return to battery bag guns
20:08:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Is there a weight limit to a rear bag Jim?
20:09:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” I don’t see return to battery being much of an issue in score shooting
20:09:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” no weight limit on bags and I have seen some monsters
20:09:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Jim I have a question: could a metal plate be used as a bag’s bottom as long as it was encased in leather and not part of the actual ‘contents’ of the bag?’
20:09:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Al–no
20:09:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” rests #2 Al’
20:09:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” #3
20:10:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Because of the dissimilar materials or the metallic part of the rule Jim?’
20:10:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” right Greg–the sentence says no metal in construction of the bag
20:10:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” hang on for a minute while I bring up the rule book
20:10:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” H 3 covers it
20:11:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” I understand but the rule also says no “dissimilar materials’ and we allow cordura and leather.’
20:11:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” Definition of sand Please ?????
20:11:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” No metallic materials may be used in the construction of the sandbag.
20:11:25 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” can a thread be run from side to side to make the sides of the bag stand up rather than bow out?
20:12:25 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Al–not sure where you get the dissimilar materials statement
20:12:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” I don’t see any mention of “dissimilar materials”
20:12:45 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” That was in the rules before we allowed Cordura
20:12:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Maybe my rule book is outdated?
20:12:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” If only “sand” can be used what would allow the bottom 1″ to be “hard”?
20:13:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow “–>” Jim How hard do they push for the .250inch deflection.
20:13:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” lots of leather
20:13:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Okay…thought I had the current one in hand..I do now. Thanks and sorry.
20:13:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” Al that is not stated in H Rests #3..page 4 of book 4 of 29 in the pdf’
20:13:29 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Paul–that answers the bottom being hard
20:13:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” right
20:14:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Mike–we have not developed a good way to measure the 1/4 inch deflection and it is an area that I think id often not capable of being done
20:14:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Should it be eliminated then ?
20:14:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Also-the 1/4 inch deflection does not mention how hard it has to be pushed
20:15:13 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Pte–in my opinion–it needs an instrument to measure it or be eliminated
20:15:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” That definition is in the NBRSA rule book which of course is a different organization.’
20:15:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow “–>” I thought it might be until the bag slides
20:15:32 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” and it doesn’t say whose finger if I was going to be disqualified I would argue that my finger would push it harder than a referees finger
20:15:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” I am curious how we can use the heavy sand that is sold when it is in fact not SAND
20:15:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” not if my thumb is on the other side
20:16:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Leon–why is it not sand?
20:16:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” That part of the rule should be eliminated for lack of an enforcement method
20:16:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” IT is a sand that has been weighted by some substance some where to get the weight
20:16:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” I argued with the rewrite of the bag rule because all sand materials are “metallic”
20:17:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Leion–heavy sand is ground stone or base material–it just happens to be heavier than silica sand
20:17:36 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” OK
20:18:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” Leon heavy sand is zirconium silicate…the zirconium gives it the extra weight’
20:18:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” silica sand is in the metals family as is chrome and zircon and the many other materials that make up foundry sand
20:18:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” thanks Greg
20:18:23 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” Sand from Dictionary.com ….
20:18:36 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” thanks ***
20:19:03 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” the metallic thing was put in rules as some used to put steel shot in their bags
20:19:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” Guess if it isn’t attracted to a magnet it must be sand
20:19:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” there is some metallic substances in trace amounts in all sand
20:19:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” so lead graduals would be ok ? lead is in it’s natural state Rock’
20:19:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” reed–not necessarily so—-there are magnetic metals and non-magnetic metals–and as I said silica is in the metals side of the chart
20:19:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” no Pete lead is a metal on the periodic table’
20:20:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” now needless to say we are not going to biopsy bags to check right
20:20:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” But it comes from rock
20:20:34 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins “–>” Why must people push the riles
20:20:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” right Bill—if we wrote the rules to cover every detail it would look like a law library–
20:20:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Ill let it go Greg
20:20:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” they are trying to gain an edge
20:20:58 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” moving right along…
20:21:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” not pushing James just clarifying
20:21:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” So if it doesn’t matter how much it weighs or how big it is what’s in it really isn’t all that important’
20:21:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” James–it seems that when rules exist -people find a reason to push them
20:21:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” if I had my way–the big gator bags would not be used–just MHO
20:22:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” can we move to stocks?
20:22:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” sure Jim
20:22:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” I had a question
20:22:24 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins “–>” Why Jim Gator bags
20:22:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Have we clarified the bags?
20:22:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” If the rules gave a specification for the type of sand to be used there wouldn’t be questions or people trying to gain an edge’
20:22:38 CDT 9/5/2005 John Scopelliti “–>” Jim. I sometimes see guys moistening the bottom of their bag when shooting off a painted surface. Legal?
20:22:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” John–yes
20:22:56 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Ron Baldner had a ? re: side stitching I believe?’
20:22:58 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Ron–what was your ?
20:23:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” Can a string be run from one side of the bag to the other to pull the sides up straight so they do not bow out?
20:24:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” string where?
20:24:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” side to side
20:24:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” through the bag
20:24:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” right through the bag with a button on each side
20:24:45 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” I do not see anything preventing that–anyone else care to comment?
20:24:57 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Me either
20:25:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” me either
20:25:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Seems like it would be legal to me.
20:25:07 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” attachment?
20:25:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” sounds legal
20:25:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” wouldn’t you be adding to the bag
20:25:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Just add sand
20:25:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” I was required to cut mine off at an HBR Nationals in Raton 15 min before the first relay.’
20:26:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Aren’t the ears effectively an attachment?
20:26:02 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” containment?
20:26:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” What was the reason given?
20:26:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Because of the button?
20:26:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” adding sand makes it bow out more and it and I bow out in the same area.
20:26:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” where are you guys getting the “attachment” word in the bag rules
20:26:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” Nothing against “additions” to the bag that I can see. Containment IMHO would be from the outside’
20:26:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” metallic buttons?
20:26:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” buttons made of anter
20:27:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” antler
20:27:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Sue – - -
20:27:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” I think containment to be boxed in…
20:27:22 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” I am wrong I thought there was something in bag section
20:27:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” the bag rule was clarified a couple of years ago to define attachment—specifically containers for windage and elevation
20:27:37 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” I have seen that at local club matches not registered
20:27:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” I would agree from the outside but definition isn’t specific’
20:28:07 CDT 9/5/2005 bbeyer “–>” use leather discs not buttons’
20:28:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” I think it would be fine. IT will not keep the bag from moving and I believe that is what the containment is for. IT will just hold the bag up so it don’t sag
20:28:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” the broader the definition the broader the range of interpretations that we can expect’
20:28:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” how do you keep the sand from falling out?
20:28:40 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins “–>” Jim Why Do you not think the gator bags are OK
20:28:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” glue the string openings?
20:28:56 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins “–>” Oops Not OK
20:29:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” just do not believe they meet the intent of the sand bag rule–mud own opinion –not that of rule enforcement
20:29:45 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” pleas bear with me with the typing–my fingers get mixed up
20:29:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” Stocks………………….
20:29:57 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin “–>” No more questions…. we can move on
20:30:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius “–>” How do they not meet them?
20:30:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” before stocks–is there anything in the tournament procedures section that anyone would like to address
20:30:36 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” drawing for benches at local matches
20:30:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Yes the hanging of targets where there are no competitors’
20:30:58 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” David–what is your ?
20:31:14 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” what recourse does the shooter have if the club does not draw for benches?
20:31:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Shoot under protest…
20:31:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” you can protest to the referees–if they do nothing–then you can use the formal protest procedure to file a protest with the governing committee
20:32:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” section III.J
20:32:31 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” thank you. we are trying to move away from the good ole boy way of doing things. that clarification helps Jim.
20:32:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” now Pete–what is your specific ? on hanging targets
20:32:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” What is the current book just so I’m on the same page here Jim?’
20:32:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” #11
20:33:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Current book is on IBS site #11.b
20:33:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Section M 1. c.’
20:33:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” are your books different from mine we have jumped a long ways’
20:33:39 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” download here http://www.international-benchrest.com/downloads.shtml
20:33:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” OK I was in 10 now in 11… thanks’
20:33:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” that’s what I got ***
20:33:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Got both
20:33:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” PDF
20:34:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” we have just gone from definitions H. 3)… TOOO????
20:34:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” It appears to me that targets are not to be hung where there is no competitor
20:34:25 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” updated to 28 March 9/5/2005
20:34:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” The old Idea of crossfires being equal are not in the rules
20:34:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Perte –not true—read that rule very carefully–it is a recommendation –not a rule
20:34:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” where does it say that Pete
20:35:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” that is a CUSTOM not a rule
20:35:15 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Herein lies lots of the problems in the rules Jim.
20:35:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Paul–where would you like to go
20:35:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” ?
20:35:36 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Pete–it is not a problem–it is plain English
20:35:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” HELL I DON’T KNOW WHERE WE HAVE GONE///
20:35:51 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” Oops caps got locked
20:36:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” guys–lets slow down and take this a step at a time
20:36:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” Paul pages 10-11 right now’
20:36:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Recommendations and rules are not complimentary in my opinion. Rules are suppose to be hard and fast’
20:36:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” so from 4 to 11 ok???
20:36:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” with the finding of help to run shoots why cant a range officer participate in a shoot as long as he is not running the relay he is shooting
20:36:49 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” it is ok to have recommendations in a rule book–it just means that it is the clubs discretion for that item
20:37:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” leon–he can as long as it is not a championship
20:37:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius “–>” Sh
“–>”
20:37:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” I don’t think there should be ant discretion at all just rules’
20:37:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” meaning anything with the word championship in the name of the shoot
20:37:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” national?
20:37:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius “–>” The recommendation that is
20:37:50 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Pete–the rule is: it is recommended that empty benches not have targets hung
20:37:50 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” Gentlemen Please note Pages in the downloaded PDF are not always same as printed book so it is best to refer to sections
20:38:01 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” sections
20:38:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Championships as far as IBS goes are clearly identified–County State regional Championships do not exist. Look at listing of what is recognized as Championship by IBS’
20:38:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Why doesn’t it simply say there will not be any targets hung where there are no competitors ?
20:39:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Rod Franzius “–>” M. 1) c …and to avoid preparing target for inactive benches.’
20:39:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” because that is not the way the members that formed the rule wanted it
20:39:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” IC
20:39:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin “–>” A good way may be to give page # and section when asking a question
20:40:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Intent was to make it just as easy for you off by yourself to x-fire as someone with a guy on either side…
20:40:26 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” right Keith
20:40:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” I’ve never seen that in writing
20:40:44 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” pw so us guys don’t have figure out how to tell our no existent target hangers how to only hang some targets rather then all
20:40:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Pete–also note it says that unoccupied benches are not to be occupied
20:40:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Then why aren’t there targets hung beside 1 and the last Keith
20:41:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Pete–lets keep tis taional
20:41:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” rational
20:41:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” I see that. And its up to the [person running the line to make sure it doesn’t happen Eh ?’
20:42:05 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” it is the competitors job to know where he is and when he needs to be shooting and on what target–it is not the organizations responsibility
20:42:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Agreed Jim.’
20:42:25 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” correct. accept responsibility for your actions
20:42:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” thanks Jim
20:42:32 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” I know in this world of litigation–that is hard for prolle to accept-but it is the way it is
20:42:37 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” know where you’re shooting
20:42:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” I can buy that
20:42:54 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” No need for outcome based shooting IMO.’
20:43:13 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Outcome Based Al?
20:43:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” any other questions on the Tournament procedure section before we move to safety
20:44:02 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” according to the rule M.c. in the last sentence it says to avoid preparing target for inactive benches
20:44:04 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Yes. Back up to Inspection of equipment
20:44:15 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” other than the nats. when should guns be weighed. what else should be checked?
20:44:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” one could take that to mean not needed
20:44:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” good one Francis
20:44:33 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Define scale
20:44:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” There are some who take this to mean balance beam
20:44:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Electronic or beam mandatory?
20:44:53 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” our rules say all equipment is to be inspected–when I started shooting BR all guns were weighed at every shoot and that was intent of rules
20:45:19 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” what happened??? democrats???
20:45:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” took too much time?
20:45:58 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” scale section needs work–it was revised to take out words balance beam–but two of the sentences still refer to pointer and leveling
20:46:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” mnoy enough help?
20:46:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” The wording of the scale rule was before the advent of digital scales.
20:46:41 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” I still believe weighing is important–you would not believe how many overweight guns I get to see as a gunsmith
20:46:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Ok Jim. I am not interested in a tutorial. I would prefer to discuss the rules fully and get some differing points off view. I will watch Hank Parker catch bass instead
20:47:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” what is a legal scale?????
20:47:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Pete Wass “–>” Niteall
20:47:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Jim rules clarification is a tutorial.’
20:47:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” so soon Pete?
20:47:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” that is fine Pete–as I am not going to spend my time debating the rules–I am doing this to help
20:47:57 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” good job Jim
20:47:59 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Please continue Jim. We really appreciate your time on this believe me.’
20:48:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” So. In this electronic age a digital scale and certified weights is legal?
20:48:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” my newest print is about done I printed a copy last week I still cant find where this is or was
20:48:46 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” So if weighing someone’s gun and it comes in overweight and they claim it is in weight what then
20:48:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” let me rephrase the above–I am more than willing to discuss differing viewpoints on rules–I just am not into the what if game
20:49:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin “–>” Jim as you move along would you give page #
20:49:16 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” thank you. lets keep moving
20:49:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” I understand
20:49:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Francis–yes the exec board ha ruled that it is and we need to coordinate getting rewritten rule updated
20:49:28 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim GOODY “–>” this should not be a what if deal imho
20:49:59 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” I can deal with section paragraph nad subparagraph number sbetter’
20:50:16 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” is a check weight adequate?
20:50:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” right jg
20:50:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” right now we are at III.I
20:50:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” what is a check weight Dave
20:50:52 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” something to check a digital or balance beam scale
20:51:02 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” verify reading
20:51:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” as long as it is a certified weight from a weigh master
20:51:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” The rules state official weight and Certified Master weight.
20:51:19 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” Jim where can a club get certified weights?’
20:51:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” can the IBS provide them? cost?
20:51:48 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” they can have them made at a machine shop and have them verified by a state weigh master–guy green used to do that for us
20:52:21 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” If that club is also NBRSA they can get them from the org. for a fee.’
20:52:30 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” IBS is looking at having them made so each club can purchase–at one time all clubs had them–I believe either Clyde or Bob Hart made them
20:52:34 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” JB we really should be weighing guns in our local matches?
20:52:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” without certified weights are scales essentially useless?
20:52:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” BIll-absolutely
20:53:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Greg–pretty much so
20:53:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” hey aren’t legal
20:53:16 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” who is in charge of weighing at a match Jim?
20:53:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” referees
20:53:30 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” thanks
20:53:37 CDT 9/5/2005 Greg palman “–>” that is something IBS could do for member clubs…take a poll and find out how many cert. weights are wanted and then contract for them somewhere?
20:53:52 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Greg–yes
20:54:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Greg–please email that as a reminder
20:54:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Commence Fire… more than once I have run a line and there is someone that fires on the word “Fire”. Is he pushing me or the rule here? I always just smile at him we need the numbers :)
20:54:33 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” Excellent Idea!
20:54:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” or better yet–*** would you be willing to be scribe and keep a follow up list for me
20:54:55 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” I will try
20:55:10 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” yes he is Keith because he can not have a round in until the commence command
20:55:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Keith–if they fire at fire–then they had a round in the gun and that is not legal
20:55:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Thanks for rte clarification Jim…
20:55:47 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” gb jb not only do we have to weigh it has to be done with a certified scale?
20:56:06 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” scale with certified weights–no big deal Bill
20:56:12 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” No. Scale and certified weight
20:56:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Okay
20:56:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” k
20:56:18 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” the old balance beam scales work well
20:56:58 CDT 9/5/2005 bbeyer “–>” does each club have a scale?
20:57:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Leon Garfield “–>” If IBS wants us to weigh them they should provide them
20:57:09 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” the ruling on accuracy of scale is one ounce?
20:57:10 CDT 9/5/2005 *** Grosbier “–>” NO
20:57:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” no leon
20:57:29 CDT 9/5/2005 Reed Garfield “–>” In our modern world I opt for letting us use postal-type digital scales with a checkweight’
20:57:32 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” one ounce is allowed
20:57:55 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” reed—digital with certified master weight
20:57:56 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow “–>” I was able to get mine at a big Ohas dealer
20:58:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” do nort set up the digital scale outdoors or in the wind–they float
20:58:42 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” 5) In Tournament where the dimension factor is involved the Host Club shall provide an accurate scale a steel rule and a pair of calipers or micrometer having a maximum capacity in excess of 1.25″. In weighing rifles with scope attached an excess of one ounce shall be attributed to scale error.’
20:58:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” I. 5) micrometer capable of at least 1.25″ how is a barrel measured while on the gun and under a scope?
20:58:55 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow “–>” They are not cheap
20:59:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” paul–mighty difficult and not practical
20:59:22 CDT 9/5/2005 Keith Skjerdal (SK) “–>” Oops
20:59:28 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” can we go back to protests?
20:59:31 CDT 9/5/2005 Paul Becigneul Pbike “–>” exactly
20:59:43 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Dave–yes–what is the ?
20:59:56 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” section J 2.
21:00:07 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” we are now on III.j
21:00:20 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” dave–what is your ?
21:00:26 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” if a shooter wants to protest does he just let the match director know and mail the protest to the exec comm?
21:00:42 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” or give the protest to the match director and hope the director deals with it
21:01:16 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” no–he make sout protest at match –pays the fee and gives it to range officer–the range officer mails it to appropriate committee
21:01:22 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” it appears both hare necessary
21:01:32 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” ok
21:01:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” it works–I have done it and so have others
21:01:42 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” thank you
21:02:08 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” This has been good.
21:02:35 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Yes…lots of clarification on many issues.
21:02:38 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” on Wednesday we will start with safety section–section IV
21:02:57 CDT 9/5/2005 David NMN Apple “–>” unprecedented by our President. Thanks Jim
21:03:00 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” Thanks again for your time Jim.’
21:03:01 CDT 9/5/2005 Halldor Nikulasson “–>” Thanks for a good job Jim!!’
21:03:01 CDT 9/5/2005 John Scopelliti “–>” Thanks Jim’
21:03:11 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” Jim–hang on to the stock ? as we will get to it when we get to equipment
21:03:13 CDT 9/5/2005 JIM GOODY “–>” thanks
21:03:14 CDT 9/5/2005 James Collins “–>” Thanks Jim
21:03:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin “–>” Thanks Jim…. good for everyone
21:03:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Al Nyhus “–>” And thanks to Stan Ware for providing a forum like this.
21:03:25 CDT 9/5/2005 JIM GOODY “–>” ok
21:03:26 CDT 9/5/2005 bbeyer “–>” thanks jim
21:03:27 CDT 9/5/2005 Ron Baldner “–>” Happy Trails all. Thanks Jim
21:03:39 CDT 9/5/2005 Joe Woosman “–>” Thanks Jim nite all.’
21:03:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” you are welcome–see ya Wednesday
21:03:58 CDT 9/5/2005 greg palman “–>” night
21:04:17 CDT 9/5/2005 Francis Becigneul “–>” Good Job Jim’
21:04:24 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” thanks francis
21:04:40 CDT 9/5/2005 Mike Bigelow “–>” Thanks Jim & Stan this has been the best thing I have seen on the com. for a while
21:04:57 CDT 9/5/2005 Bill Sargent “–>” thanks jim come on up to VT some time
21:05:23 CDT 9/5/2005 Admin “–>” Welcom Mike…. I hope Jims fingers heal by Wed. ?
21:05:26 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” bill–i am planning on making it next year–finally have a score gun again
21:05:47 CDT 9/5/2005 greg palman “–>” cu folks…thanks jim for your time
21:06:14 CDT 9/5/2005 Jim Borden “–>” thanks all–going to bed–south africans will be here early in morning


Transcript 2

9/7/2005 19:57:36 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> hi all;
9/7/2005 19:57:44 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Hello teacher. Did you have a nice day?;
9/7/2005 19:57:48 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> Jim;
9/7/2005 19:57:56 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> had a fair day;
9/7/2005 19:58:26 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Hi Butch;
9/7/2005 19:58:27 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Jim where did you stop last time? Visalia didn’t have a hook-up on Monday.;
9/7/2005 19:58:28 CDT 2005 Dwayne Garfield–> br;
9/7/2005 19:58:36 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> Butch;
9/7/2005 19:58:41 CDT 2005 Dwayne Garfield–> bb;
9/7/2005 19:58:41 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> thought I would take a quick moment before we start to nite to talk about rule changes;
9/7/2005 19:58:49 CDT 2005 bob beyer–> hi all;
9/7/2005 19:59:04 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Go;
9/7/2005 19:59:14 CDT 2005 Dwayne Garfield–> lw;
9/7/2005 19:59:21 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> LW;
9/7/2005 19:59:22 CDT 2005 LW Moore–> folks;
9/7/2005 19:59:32 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> I plan on making rule change procedure an entire evening–say next wednesday;
9/7/2005 19:59:41 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Can I ask that greetings be kept to a minimum to keep the session moving nicely?
9/7/2005 20:00:36 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> I that ok?
9/7/2005 20:00:50 CDT 2005 Admin–> Yes, good idea Paul;
9/7/2005 20:00:51 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> I think some ideas will come out of these sessions for rule changes and I want to make sure that we all understand that unless I specify otherwise, I will not be sheparding the changes;
9/7/2005 20:01:26 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Sounds fair
9/7/2005 20:01:42 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> silence
9/7/2005 20:01:46 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> the IBS has an excellent member sponsored system for change and let us plan on covering that next Wednesday evening
9/7/2005 20:02:07 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> great
9/7/2005 20:02:17 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> lets start tonite by reviewing Section IV-Safety
9/7/2005 20:02:18 CDT 2005 greg palman–> //32
9/7/2005 20:02:29 CDT 2005 Bill Sargent–> ?s still ok as we go along
9/7/2005 20:02:43 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Can we at sometime back up to where we left off before we jumped so far ahead?
9/7/2005 20:02:43 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> yes bill- I would prefer that
9/7/2005 20:03:12 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Paul–before we start on safety–what is on your mind that we skipped?
9/7/2005 20:03:24 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Flags
9/7/2005 20:03:27 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> in section III letter U
9/7/2005 20:03:47 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> tournament procedure and supplementary sight in targets
9/7/2005 20:03:48 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> ok–lets talk about III.U
9/7/2005 20:04:07 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> since it is tournament procedure it is needed at every match?
9/7/2005 20:04:38 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Yes–the sight in targets are required at all registered matches
9/7/2005 20:05:07 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> ?
9/7/2005 20:05:11 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> “so I sight in target would have given Pete something to aim at to check zero when his sighter was “”blown away”"?;”,
9/7/2005 20:05:25 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> it got put in the rulebook when some folks were running into sight in problems and were shooting up backer boards and flags
9/7/2005 20:05:49 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> they are mounted before the first relay of each agg, there is no mention that they have to be taken down?;
9/7/2005 20:05:49 CDT 2005 greg palman–> jim, is that the warm up match so called?;
9/7/2005 20:05:50 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Jim sight-in targets are separate from the target frame correct?
9/7/2005 20:06:02 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> And yet when we brought it up Last night Tuesday. No one knew what we were talking about.
9/7/2005 20:06:12 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> I id
9/7/2005 20:06:17 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> I did
9/7/2005 20:06:18 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> sight in targets are separate from the target frame and normally are left hanging all day
9/7/2005 20:06:26 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> true
9/7/2005 20:06:46 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> And they are supposed to be up at all backers???
9/7/2005 20:06:52 CDT 2005 greg palman–> not done then regularly?,
9/7/2005 20:06:53 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Don’t they use them in Maine and Vermont?,
9/7/2005 20:07:00 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> great and the IBS rules call for two large pieces of paper can that be at the two extremes of the range or anywhere above the flags?,
9/7/2005 20:07:03 CDT 2005 greg palman–> Don’t in PA or MD,
9/7/2005 20:07:07 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> at some clubs it is mounted on a board above the center of the firing line–at others it is at end of each end of firing line,
9/7/2005 20:07:29 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> it great,
9/7/2005 20:07:44 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> So the rules say we need to do this???,
9/7/2005 20:07:51 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> thanks Jim I think this can help in a situation where a guy is having trouble,
9/7/2005 20:07:53 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> they are at Palmisanos, South Creek, Fairchance, painted Post…..;
9/7/2005 20:08:01 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> More sighy-in boards can be used Jim. We use 4 at San Gabriel for 5 frames,
9/7/2005 20:08:04 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> yes Leon,
9/7/2005 20:08:09 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> ok,
9/7/2005 20:08:29 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Thanks for Backing up Jim I appreciate it,
9/7/2005 20:08:34 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> When you get a chance Jim I have a question on II, H, 4
9/7/2005 20:08:36 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Francis–you mentioned flags–is there a ?,
9/7/2005 20:09:14 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Yes. When the book says a high flag is to be placed down by a referee is that to mean all the way down?–> ,

9/7/2005 20:09:25 CDT 2005 greg palman–> then I stand corrected…but I certainly missed them
9/7/2005 20:09:50 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> that is the discretion of the club and refereees–practice has been that high flags after the start of the match are laid down
9/7/2005 20:10:06 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Yes
9/7/2005 20:10:25 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Well, the rules and the organization are universal so I think it should be the same at all ranges.;
9/7/2005 20:10:38 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Shot flags especially
9/7/2005 20:10:42 CDT 2005 greg palman–> what page F?
9/7/2005 20:10:59 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Again in discussion last night there were those who felt it meant to make them legal.
9/7/2005 20:11:14 CDT 2005 greg palman–> that’s the way I feel
9/7/2005 20:11:16 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> No time for legal
9/7/2005 20:11:31 CDT 2005 Dwayne Garfield–> whats the hurry
9/7/2005 20:11:57 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Is This II R 1, and 2?;
9/7/2005 20:12:02 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> people need to learn how to set legal flags
9/7/2005 20:12:10 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> III R ?
9/7/2005 20:12:14 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> all competitors have a chance to make their flags legal before the match starts—a good practice is to make your flags no higher than the top of the bench to the bottom of the target and then they will not get lowered
9/7/2005 20:12:26 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> yes
9/7/2005 20:12:44 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Yet the new ruling is not worded that way?
9/7/2005 20:13:08 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> referees should check them all and advise to make flags legal before shooting starts
9/7/2005 20:13:25 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> I Don’t see that in the way it is written
9/7/2005 20:13:43 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> as long as a ref does it, it sounds legal to me
9/7/2005 20:13:50 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Paul-it says the flags are to be below line of bullet flight–I am just suggesting a good way to ascertain that before the match starts
9/7/2005 20:14:07 CDT 2005 greg palman–> Leon,” its “”custom”" to lay them down”, but that isn’t what the rulebook specifies;
9/7/2005 20:14:10 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Very Good
9/7/2005 20:14:18 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> ok
9/7/2005 20:14:19 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Yes Jim
9/7/2005 20:15:11 CDT 2005 bob beyer–> AS A REF i DO NOT WANT TO BE RESPONSABLE FOR SOMEONES FLAGS
9/7/2005 20:15:25 CDT 2005 bob beyer–> sorry the caps
9/7/2005 20:15:28 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> We can get carried away with the specificity of the rules and I disagree with many of you that rules can be made more specific–the more words that are used-the more they can be open for interpretation-
9/7/2005 20:15:36 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Don’t be a ref Bob
9/7/2005 20:16:12 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Bob–you are not responsible for their flags-if they are too high–they get put down–some refs have chosen to just reset them
9/7/2005 20:16:18 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> I think it is like Jury duty, It is everyone rights and responsibility at one time or another
9/7/2005 20:16:40 CDT 2005 Dwayne Garfield–> I think if you have time to lay a persons flag down you could put it down and leave it in use
9/7/2005 20:16:57 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> how would a ref know what good height to set a high flag Jim
9/7/2005 20:17:01 CDT 2005 JIM GOODY–> can we move on?
9/7/2005 20:17:11 CDT 2005 David NMN Apple–> thank you
9/7/2005 20:17:27 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> here is an example of a rule change idea–if someone does not like how it is written, they can write an agenda item-get 25 signatures and have it put up for vote at winter meeting
9/7/2005 20:17:38 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Thanks Jim
9/7/2005 20:17:49 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> true
9/7/2005 20:17:54 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> I would be unhappy if my high flag was dropped to the ground and the next week Joes high flag was taken down two inches at the next range.
9/7/2005 20:18:06 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> It is not the referees job to do what the shooter should have done correctly in the first place Dwayne
9/7/2005 20:18:11 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> as it stands now–lowered can mean laid down or just adjusted
9/7/2005 20:18:22 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> Jim could I get clarification on II,H,4;
9/7/2005 20:18:29 CDT 2005 Dwayne Garfield–> just be nice guy
9/7/2005 20:18:51 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> What is the proper way to pick a gun out of a front rest and still be legal
9/7/2005 20:18:56 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> that is why I gave the advice of no higher than top of bench to bottom of target –in 27 years of shooting i have never had a flag put down using that method
9/7/2005 20:19:32 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Leon–take hold of bottom of rifle and raise it straight up without lifting the rest
9/7/2005 20:19:49 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> so the heavy rest has an advantage?
9/7/2005 20:19:51 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> If it comes out without lifting the rest it is LEGAL
9/7/2005 20:20:08 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> if the ref would do there job before the shooting starts there would be no high flags;
9/7/2005 20:20:20 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> correct–in terms of not being clamped too tight;
9/7/2005 20:20:25 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> Thank you;
9/7/2005 20:20:36 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Thank you;
9/7/2005 20:21:08 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> any other items from sections II or III?;
9/7/2005 20:21:38 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Silence;
9/7/2005 20:21:47 CDT 2005 greg palman–> no;
9/7/2005 20:22:02 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Greg–before we move on are you ok with the explanation of the flag thing?;
9/7/2005 20:22:14 CDT 2005 greg palman–> yes jim;
9/7/2005 20:22:56 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> ok-one item mentioned the other nite was someone firing at the word-fire–see Safety section paragraph B;
9/7/2005 20:23:14 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> Jim I have a question on A 5 and 6…;
9/7/2005 20:23:38 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> The VHA Varmint Hunters Association are running IBS 600 yard matches…;
9/7/2005 20:24:01 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> and their safety regimen is not what our standard bolts out rule is…;
9/7/2005 20:24:17 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> ouch–what are they doing;
9/7/2005 20:24:18 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> they go by the rule 5 foot away from the bench …;
9/7/2005 20:24:35 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> has their been any problems there?;
9/7/2005 20:24:57 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> I found it very odd at the one match I shot
9/7/2005 20:25:20 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> you mean you were not allowed at bench until target crew came back?
9/7/2005 20:25:35 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> would the IBS entertain removing five foot rule and go with strick bolts out?
9/7/2005 20:25:43 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> exactly
9/7/2005 20:25:53 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> but your bolts could be in…
9/7/2005 20:25:59 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> really weird
9/7/2005 20:26:10 CDT 2005 greg palman–> I hope not…personally
9/7/2005 20:26:19 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> bolts in is NOT OK until after the range officer command
9/7/2005 20:26:26 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> right
9/7/2005 20:26:41 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> I will follow up with Tony and Jeff on this one
9/7/2005 20:26:53 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> ***-pls capture that
9/7/2005 20:27:07 CDT 2005 greg palman–> Jim…safety A 1 and 2…they differ from the NBRSA in the cease fire area???
9/7/2005 20:27:08 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> that’s when I commented, I was shown the book where the five foot doesn’t say bolts out and that the other rule is the alternative to bolts out;
9/7/2005 20:27:16 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Jim I feel Shooters should not be allowed at the benches until the Target crew comes back. That is the way we do things at San Gabriel.
9/7/2005 20:27:30 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> It would seem to me if they have adequate time to do it their way it is even safer, I got it Jim;
9/7/2005 20:27:45 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> these are not alternative rules –they are additive
9/7/2005 20:28:12 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> see IV.B and III.M.3.c;
9/7/2005 20:28:18 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> At the discretion is where they had their interpretation;
9/7/2005 20:28:39 CDT 2005 greg palman–> “nbrsa says no shot after the “”beginning”" of the command cease fire…IBS says “”after”" the command cease fire. That seems to be a difference in methods?;”
9/7/2005 20:28:42 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> great I will let them know;
9/7/2005 20:29:03 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> the discretion is whether or not a rifle can be placed on the rest–the remainder of that sentence says musts must be out;
9/7/2005 20:29:06 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> Safety is Paramount to shooters wants.;
9/7/2005 20:29:28 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> correct Greg;
9/7/2005 20:30:19 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> one item often that is a problem is when a range officer calls cease fire in the middle of a match–if he says cease fire and not hold your fire–then there had better be no shots after that;
9/7/2005 20:30:23 CDT 2005 greg palman–> “jim..the wording is “”shall constitute grounds for disqualification”" Is that mandatory DQ or not?;”
9/7/2005 20:30:52 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> what happened was they thought that by following A 1 or 5 they could skip A 6 or 2 as it is listed in the download;
9/7/2005 20:30:55 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> true Jim that is a safety issue;
9/7/2005 20:31:00 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> DNQ;
9/7/2005 20:31:07 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> DQ is not used;
9/7/2005 20:31:16 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> if it is clear that the person fired after cease fire –they are disqualified;
9/7/2005 20:31:40 CDT 2005 greg palman–> ok tks;
9/7/2005 20:31:54 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> is it when the command begins Jim?;
9/7/2005 20:32:24 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> after stephen–see wording in IV.C.1
9/7/2005 20:32:39 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> or can a person shoot during the command
9/7/2005 20:33:01 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> so the e of fire is the end of the command, after that is after the command
9/7/2005 20:33:05 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> Jim:
9/7/2005 20:33:06 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> can not fire before commence fire nor after cease fire
9/7/2005 20:33:12 CDT 2005 greg palman–> jim what about loaded round in the action but bolt open before commence fire? we do not allow that here in Maine
9/7/2005 20:33:31 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> or anywhere in IBS
9/7/2005 20:33:59 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Not allowed in IBS
9/7/2005 20:34:00 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> greg–it is not allowed–all bolts must be open and to rear with no round on the ramp or in chamber–III.M.3.c I believe
9/7/2005 20:34:15 CDT 2005 Stephen Perry–> thanks for the time Jim have to go to an emergency meeting at San Gabriel
9/7/2005 20:34:31 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> see you stephen
9/7/2005 20:34:51 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> III M 3 c correct for the location
9/7/2005 20:35:10 CDT 2005 greg palman–> ok jim…never saw it in the rules…thanks
9/7/2005 20:35:15 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> Jim: In IV B,” “”Open Actions”"”, what is the legality of placing a Bolt Body in an action at the loading bench?;
9/7/2005 20:35:15 CDT 2005 Mike Hibbs–> ber
9/7/2005 20:35:20 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> so no ammo till commence is given
9/7/2005 20:35:34 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> John–it is not supposed to be done—period
9/7/2005 20:35:46 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Paul–that is correct
9/7/2005 20:36:02 CDT 2005 David NMN Apple–> even with the firing pin out??
9/7/2005 20:36:14 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> the few seconds saved will win you nothing…
9/7/2005 20:36:24 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> if a competitor needs a trigger adjusted or something like that–they should go to referees and get permission and help doing it in a secure area
9/7/2005 20:36:37 CDT 2005 David NMN Apple–> thank you
9/7/2005 20:36:40 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> correct david
9/7/2005 20:37:36 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> we have to use our heads and good common sense–everything can not be covered by rules–we can think through things and use our heads
9/7/2005 20:38:04 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> does everyone understand the difference between hold your fire and cease fire?
9/7/2005 20:38:21 CDT 2005 greg palman–> no
9/7/2005 20:38:22 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Yes
9/7/2005 20:38:29 CDT 2005 LW Moore–> yes
9/7/2005 20:38:32 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> Maybe
9/7/2005 20:38:39 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> E emergency commands…. IBS give one additional minute I just noticed this last night… NBRSA gives 2, some clubs I have shot at get this confused…;
9/7/2005 20:39:14 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> a range officer can command hold your fire-clear your rifle by opening the bolt or firing when a target comes loose or some other event such as that–he then checks that everyone has a clear rifle
9/7/2005 20:39:35 CDT 2005 greg palman–> ok
9/7/2005 20:39:38 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> “in an emergency-he says “”cease fire”"–that means–no shot better be fired after that;”,
9/7/2005 20:39:47 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> What if you have a malfunction in your bolt and cant get it opened
9/7/2005 20:40:16 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> Tell Range officer
9/7/2005 20:40:20 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Leon–then you tell the range officer and leave the bolt closed and do not fire the rifle
9/7/2005 20:40:56 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> ok then do you get to remove it from the range after cease fire
9/7/2005 20:40:57 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> it is the competitors responsibility to get the rifle removed to a safe place… I heard that somewhere in the NBRSA, is that listed here any for IBS?;
9/7/2005 20:41:00 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Paul–you are correct and it has caused confusion
9/7/2005 20:41:55 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> I think the one minute is just something for those that shoot both disciplines to be aware of
9/7/2005 20:42:06 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> rifle can not be removed until it is made safe–that is not listed –it just makes sense that a rifle is not to be removed from the firing line with a live round in it or a bolt in it until it has been determined that it is safe
9/7/2005 20:42:30 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> ok
9/7/2005 20:42:59 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> any questions on Sportsmanlike conduct orpeople downrange?
9/7/2005 20:43:19 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> during changing of relays, in front of the bench is downrange?;
9/7/2005 20:43:30 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> that is correct Paul
9/7/2005 20:43:45 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> some find it easy to walk there, I find it could be a hazard;
9/7/2005 20:44:13 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> What does a shooter do if he wishes to remove the sunshade in front of the bench? After all, it is downrange.;
9/7/2005 20:44:20 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Exec BOard takes lots of heat on that one–but we almost had an individual shot two different times–due to habit of walking in front of benches
9/7/2005 20:44:29 CDT 2005 David NMN Apple–> isn’t it in the rules that no one is allowed down range after the warm up?
9/7/2005 20:44:56 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> It stays there until the completion of the aggregate or yardage
9/7/2005 20:45:01 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> It only makes sense not to go across the line that all muzzle must be in front of
9/7/2005 20:45:03 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Same as your flags
9/7/2005 20:45:20 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> Range personnel and referees
9/7/2005 20:45:34 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> That’s what I thought.
9/7/2005 20:45:38 CDT 2005 David NMN Apple–> right *** NOT competitors
9/7/2005 20:45:42 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> no-one downrange except range personnel and refs after the first shot is fired
9/7/2005 20:45:47 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> if they will do it for you, they may have other things to do;
9/7/2005 20:46:26 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> Range personnel can be competitors
9/7/2005 20:46:47 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Are we ready to move into Section V?
9/7/2005 20:46:54 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> still better not touch a flag I would think
9/7/2005 20:47:02 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> “Does leaving a bench before the “”Cease Fire”" fall under the Sportsmanship area?;”,
9/7/2005 20:47:05 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> I am satisfied with what was discussed here
9/7/2005 20:47:40 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> John–yes–it has been administered that way and many ranges make it a range rule that no competitor can leave until after cease fire
9/7/2005 20:48:17 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> Good. I think it should be mandatory at all ranges.
9/7/2005 20:48:53 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> John–good idea and that would be another one that can be written up-get the signatures and get on the agenda
9/7/2005 20:49:11 CDT 2005 greg palman–> jim..on persons down range….its ok after the warm up match but before match 1 of the agg..correct?
9/7/2005 20:49:13 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> John that is not written into the rules as you worded it, if you feel that way you should probably go through what it takes to get that added;
9/7/2005 20:49:24 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Greg–no
9/7/2005 20:49:32 CDT 2005 greg palman–> ??
9/7/2005 20:49:56 CDT 2005 greg palman–> is the warm up considered part of the agg?
9/7/2005 20:50:00 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> IV.g–says no person down range after the registered agg has begun
9/7/2005 20:50:20 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> not after 1st record shot is fired ??
9/7/2005 20:50:34 CDT 2005 greg palman–> warm up match is not record
9/7/2005 20:50:35 CDT 2005 David NMN Apple–> read the rules
9/7/2005 20:50:47 CDT 2005 LW Moore–> good point greg
9/7/2005 20:50:53 CDT 2005 greg palman–> I am but Don’t read it that way and am looking for clarification
9/7/2005 20:50:59 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> probably an area where wording could be more specific———-i just remember the intent when it was put in the rules
9/7/2005 20:51:02 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> “awards are given does that make the warm up “”registered”";”,
9/7/2005 20:51:17 CDT 2005 greg palman–> I can see that Jim, but……..;
9/7/2005 20:51:49 CDT 2005 greg palman–> wording leads one to believe its ok after WU since it is not part of the agg
9/7/2005 20:51:52 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> and thus making it part of the registered agg?;
9/7/2005 20:51:53 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> is the intent no one down range after first warm up shot fired ? In your opinion;
9/7/2005 20:52:33 CDT 2005 Al Nyhus–> Evening everyone.;
9/7/2005 20:52:58 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> ***–yes that is my opinion and yes Greg-I see how it can be read–however-lets consider why the rule was ever written. I can not reword the rules nor can the board except for safety items–I will run this one by the Exec Board;
9/7/2005 20:53:32 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> Smokin Joe!;
9/7/2005 20:53:41 CDT 2005 greg palman–> jim I can readily see why it should say after the match begins including the WU…or something like that;
9/7/2005 20:54:26 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> The safety section is only section where the exec board can rewrite a rule and you have raised a good point that I will followup on;
9/7/2005 20:54:35 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> is the warm up meant to warm up the shooter or all his equipment including flags…;
9/7/2005 20:54:38 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> I can see it that way that’s just not what I was ever told it really should be clarified IMHO;
9/7/2005 20:55:09 CDT 2005 greg palman–> yes it should;
9/7/2005 20:55:11 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> if it includes all equipment is the time or allowance to make a quick adjustment before the record begins… is that the intent of warm up;
9/7/2005 20:55:16 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Ira farnsworth used to warm up my flags!!! He always fired his first shot at dirt below target-regardless of where flags were;
9/7/2005 20:55:39 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> Good ol Ira;
9/7/2005 20:55:48 CDT 2005 greg palman–> typical Vermonter!!!;
9/7/2005 20:55:57 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> lol;
9/7/2005 20:56:20 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Paul–warm up was not intended to adjust flags–we could not set personal flags when I started-we had to use range flags–warm up was to make sure we were on target;
9/7/2005 20:56:39 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> I think going through this with shooters on this media is a great thing
9/7/2005 20:57:04 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> I’m with you Paul!
9/7/2005 20:57:21 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> great. I have never thought of it that way but it looked as if some though it could be construed that way
9/7/2005 20:57:31 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> Lets hang tight for Friday night–i should be able to be here–but hope I will be out of the anesthesia
9/7/2005 20:57:57 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> lots of the boy will be traveling Friday
9/7/2005 20:58:02 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> Jim, good luck with the procedure.;
9/7/2005 20:58:19 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Don’t let them anesthetize your fingers
9/7/2005 20:58:21 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> should we forestall Friday night and reschedule for Monday?
9/7/2005 20:58:26 CDT 2005 greg palman–> Jim, at least the doc isn’t a proctologist;
9/7/2005 20:58:34 CDT 2005 JIM GOODY–> the 20th maine is going to vermont and you know the rest of the deal
9/7/2005 20:58:35 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> there is vermont and camillus this weekend
9/7/2005 20:58:38 CDT 2005 greg palman–> YES!!!!!!!!!
9/7/2005 20:58:38 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> That sounds like a smart idea.
9/7/2005 20:58:39 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> It all up to You and ADMIN
9/7/2005 20:58:47 CDT 2005 Admin–> Its ok here Jim
9/7/2005 20:58:50 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> works for me
9/7/2005 20:58:55 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> greg–no but he used a borescope on me the other day!!
9/7/2005 20:59:03 CDT 2005 Bill Sargent–> yup would postpone
9/7/2005 20:59:11 CDT 2005 greg palman–> did he wipe the Kroil off?
9/7/2005 20:59:14 CDT 2005 Leon Garfield–> I agree wait till monday
9/7/2005 20:59:16 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> ok–then Monday it is
9/7/2005 20:59:17 CDT 2005 pbike paul Becigneul–> thanks jim
9/7/2005 20:59:19 CDT 2005 Dwayne Garfield–> nite guys
9/7/2005 20:59:25 CDT 2005 Ron Baldner–> Thanks Jim
9/7/2005 20:59:29 CDT 2005 John Scopelliti–> Whats the topic?
9/7/2005 20:59:32 CDT 2005 bob beyer–> thanks a lot jim
9/7/2005 20:59:33 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> one thing I would like to revisit from Monday-gator bags
9/7/2005 20:59:34 CDT 2005 Admin–> Thanks Jim for another great session
9/7/2005 20:59:46 CDT 2005 *** Grosbier–> yes
9/7/2005 20:59:51 CDT 2005 Francis Becigneul–> Admit it. You hate the gator bag
9/7/2005 20:59:55 CDT 2005 greg palman–> your at the podium jim
9/7/2005 20:59:58 CDT 2005 Jim Borden–> topic monday is group shooting rules–but that applies to score for stocks, etc;


Transcript 3

9/19/05 19:56:49 Jim Borden–>hi all,
9/19/05 19:57:02 Jim Borden–>Leon–what’s up?,
9/19/05 19:57:12 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>Hi Jim, we have a little question re: a DQ at the Nationals,” during a “”cease fire”" command…”
9/19/05 19:57:14 *** Grosbier–>we are discussing disqualification for firing during the cease fire command,
9/19/05 19:57:18 Leon Garfield–>*** was telling us someone got disqualified at shooting during the command commence fire, It was my understanding that we had till the e in fire
9/19/05 19:57:40 Jim Borden’,”‘the shooter admitted to firing after the word “”fire”"”
9/19/05 19:57:49 *** Grosbier–>no during cease fire,
9/19/05 19:57:50 Leon Garfield–>ok didn’t hear it hat way,
9/19/05 19:57:52 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>No question then…,
9/19/05 19:57:59 Leon Garfield–>DQ,
9/19/05 19:58:19 Leon Garfield–>that was easy
9/19/05 19:58:41 Jim Borden–>he aid he had finger on trigger during commence and did not get it off until after fire–or at least that was the way it was reported to me
9/19/05 19:59:09 nickloy–>Too all the guys on in this room ,I am not going to stay for the whole session, but I have a question for Jim about scoring a VFS target. If the Official scorer cannot make a call as to the score, can the plug be removed and then replaced
or once the plug is removed can it not be replaced
9/19/05 19:59:13 Bill Sargent–>cease-bang-fire is ok or not
9/19/05 19:59:21 Jim Borden–>there should have been at least two more dq’s–one for bolt in rifle in cart at firing line
9/19/05 19:59:33 Leon Garfield–>Ok thanks Jim that is what I thought you had told us we had till the e in fire
9/19/05 19:59:41 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>One was to watch his clock better eh… and you can only plus it once…
9/19/05 19:00:15 Francis Becigneul–>Early crowd
9/19/05 19:00:22 Dwayne Garfield–>we get20-30 deg below
9/19/05 20:00:00 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>plug
9/19/05 20:00:05 Jim Borden–>nick intent is that it be in target and stay there until refs have ruled on it
9/19/05 20:00:25 nickloy–>Jim,’;
9/19/05 20:00:27 Leon Garfield–>OK Bill
9/19/05 20:00:43 Jim Borden–>yes bill–that is ok
9/19/05 20:00:54 Jim Borden–>kind of close–but ok
9/19/05 20:00:57 *** Grosbier–>so you need to call a referee every time you plug a target ?
9/19/05 20:01:21 Jim Borden–>if you believe your judgment on the plug will be questioned–the answer is yes
9/19/05 20:01:21 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>Yup, or else why plug it?’;
9/19/05 20:01:27 Leon Garfield–>I don’t think I will ever come close to the commence…..lol
9/19/05 20:02:15 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>So what do you have planned tonight Jim?
9/19/05 20:02:15 Jim Borden–>if the plug has been removed and the score gets protested–then obviously the plug has to be reinserted
9/19/05 20:02:36 nickloy–>we have had a large number of clubs who will remove the plug or go back and re-score the target by replacing the plug. Can this be clarified in the rule book too stop this practice
9/19/05 20:02:38 Leon Garfield–>that does happen Jim,’;
9/19/05 20:02:52 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)’,”‘And the target marked a “”P”" for plugged…’;”,
9/19/05 20:03:26 nickloy–>Keith,”yes the target is marked with a “”p”"‘;”
9/19/05 20:03:33 *** Grosbier–>the rulebook says plug not to be removed until a decision is made it does not say a referee decision has been made,
9/19/05 20:03:43 Jim Borden–>nick–I think the intent is rather clear –if you would like to see a more specific rule written–you can write a proposed change and get 25 signatures and submit for addition to meeting agenda,
9/19/05 20:04:05 nickloy–>***,Can you tell were it is in the rule book
9/19/05 20:04:15 *** Grosbier–>I will look,
9/19/05 20:04:33 Leon Garfield–>If a scorer plugs your target and you think it should have been an X, you go to the refs and they have to insert the plug to check it, that is the way it is’;
9/19/05 20:04:45 Jim Borden–>Correct Leon,
9/19/05 20:04:49 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>Myself, being a Cdn, I like the NBRSA template vs. the plug… you can put the template on it 100 times and it does not chg the hole..’;
9/19/05 20:05:18 Jim Borden–>I LOVE the template–it is also more accurate as it does not drift with how the hole is punched in the target,
9/19/05 20:05:26 nickloy–>Jim I have looked at the rule book and cannot find any reference to the plug remaining in the target,
9/19/05 20:05:52 *** Grosbier–>Page 19 section F2 of online rulebook,
9/19/05 20:06:02 nickloy–>Jim, were can this template be found
9/19/05 20:06:18 Jim Borden’,”’2) Scoring plug is to be placed in target by Scorer and not removed until a decision is made. If Scorer cannot arrive at a decision then it is to be made by the Referees before the plug is removed. At this time the letters “”PR”" are to be placed by the score. If the plug is used and the Referees are not needed”,” the letter “”P”" is used.’;”,
9/19/05 20:06:39 Leon Garfield–>IBS shoot has to be scored with plug, IF you want to use the template you will have to make a rule change
9/19/05 20:06:49 *** Grosbier–>true,
9/19/05 20:07:03 Jim Borden–>Bill Meuser from St Louis has a great template –different than NBRSA and correct Leon,
9/19/05 20:07:14 Jim Borden–>Now–on to the agenda for tonight,
9/19/05 20:08:11 Jim Borden–>I would like to take a few moments to review some things I observed this past weekend
9/19/05 20:08:38 nickloy–>Jim,Iam going out my truck and getting my copy of the rule book and make sure the clubs follow the rules.’;
9/19/05 20:08:55 Jim Borden–>It is obvious to me that some clubs have apparently been lax at enforcing some rules because too many competitors had sloppy habits
9/19/05 20:10:07 Jim Borden–>I shot relay 1–had a competitor from relay #2 setting his equipment up on bench next to me while relay 1 was setting up and then he would leave his gun there–that is NOT ok
9/19/05 20:10:36 Jim Borden–>I challenged him on it and he quit setting his gun on it but continued to set up his equipment.
9/19/05 20:11:01 *** Grosbier–>interesting point
9/19/05 20:11:04 Francis Becigneul–>Absolute No No
9/19/05 20:11:37 Jim Borden–>a competitor from really #2 changed a scope on Saturday Night and then sat down on a bench on relay 1 on Sunday morning expecting to sight in and could not understand why it was not o.k. for him to do that
9/19/05 20:11:55 Jim Borden–>I told him he had to do it in HIS 10 minutes just like any of us on really 1
9/19/05 20:12:48 Jim Borden–>same competitor routinely went in front of the bench to pick up his rests and bags–no need for them to be there in first place just look at pictures on IBS webpage of Union county firing line
9/19/05 20:13:34 Ron Baldner–>was there no warm up match?
9/19/05 20:13:47 Jim Borden–>I did not have him DQ’d as I was already getting to be called the hard a___. What really surprised me is that he was not challenged by other competitors-who were running around whispering about it
9/19/05 20:14:01 Jim Borden–>Ron–it was the warm-up
9/19/05 20:14:22 Ron Baldner–>thanks
9/19/05 20:14:24 David NMN Apple–>2 hours from warm-up to relay 1
9/19/05 20:14:51 *** Grosbier–>not quite David but close
9/19/05 20:15:00 Bill Sargent–>Jim leaving the bench and cleaning up your stuff before the end of a relay is ok?
9/19/05 20:15:19 Jim Borden–>I seem to hear a lot about how rules need to be followed and enforced and that they need to be more specific and then watch those that are giving me the feedback sit back and do nothing to challenge inappropriate behavior–that is NOT ok
9/19/05 20:15:40 Francis Becigneul–>No. Bill
9/19/05 20:16:13 Jim Borden–>bill–that is club discretion–but highly suggested that everyone stay put until really is finished. Union County at MY request instituted that everyone stay seated until really was finished
9/19/05 20:16:36 Francis Becigneul–>In the name of safety and courtesy
9/19/05 20:16:40 Jim Borden–>David–Club has already received my feedback about pace and we are going to work with them on correction
9/19/05 20:17:22 Bill Sargent–>k thanks
9/19/05 20:17:27 Jim Borden–>Dave or ***–any observations that either of you would like to make regarding the weekend?
9/19/05 20:17:43 Jim Borden–>Where are Greg and Pete and Jim?
9/19/05 20:17:55 Leon Garfield–>still traveling I think
9/19/05 20:18:30 David NMN Apple–>Jim. I would have liked a more timely match. no inspections other than the weigh in
9/19/05 20:18:35 *** Grosbier–>4 relays was intolerable and kept 50 people for several extra hours for convenience of a couple people shooting 2 guns
9/19/05 20:18:57 Rod Franzius–>I talked with Greg around 5 this afternoon and they were in Kennebunk, Me and there was heavy traffic due to an accident on the turnpike. They were going to detour on Route 1.’;
9/19/05 20:19:22 David NMN Apple–>running an ill coordinated match is no reason to penalize a shooter wanting to shoot two guns
9/19/05 20:19:22 Jim Borden–>Dave–what do you mean by no inspections?
9/19/05 20:19:55 David NMN Apple–>lifting gun from front rest, measuring front stock width.’;
9/19/05 20:20:06 Jim Borden–>ah–but adding relays for convenience of a couple of shooters is not ok either–3 relays could have handled things greatly,
9/19/05 20:20:28 *** Grosbier–>easily,
9/19/05 20:20:28 David NMN Apple–>correct.,
9/19/05 20:20:40 Jim Borden–>Dave–I think inspections are fine–keeps people on their toes,
9/19/05 20:20:51 Leon Garfield–>That is the rules check, check, check’;
9/19/05 20:20:57 David NMN Apple–>I agree and would like to see them actually take place,
9/19/05 20:21:08 Jim Borden–>We had a problem with range officer pace and the target crew was different each day and had to be trained–that will not happen there again,
9/19/05 20:22:06 Jim Borden–>I was hoping Pete would be here as I was adamant that empty targets not be covered.,
9/19/05 20:22:21 Jim Borden–>in 28 competitive years of shooting I had never crossfired,
9/19/05 20:22:32 David NMN Apple–>welcome to the club buddy,
9/19/05 20:22:41 *** Grosbier–>Frankly I was surprised they had one of the most experienced range officers around but a unnecessary cease fire was called by mistake.,
9/19/05 20:22:50 Jim Borden–>on Sunday after setting a pace for my 20 year old record for two matches I fired on an empty target next to me,
9/19/05 20:23:01 Jim Borden–>I am sure Pete is wondering if I still feel the same way,
9/19/05 20:23:10 *** Grosbier–>unfortunately I have done same not unnecessary but wrong type,
9/19/05 20:23:24 Jim Borden–>The answer is YES–it was MY responsibility to be on my target,
9/19/05 20:23:32 Francis Becigneul–>right,
9/19/05 20:23:33 Leon Garfield–>I have to run but before I leave I would like to say, Any of the shoots I have been to the rules are LOOSE!!!!! If rules are to be followed it is something all clubs must do so that people don’t stop going to the ones that to enforce them…..
9/19/05 20:23:42 *** Grosbier–>sure wish Pete was here,
9/19/05 20:24:17 Jim Borden–>Leon–I am going to be traveling the score circuit moiré next year and the rules will BE enforced,
9/19/05 20:24:28 Francis Becigneul–>good,
9/19/05 20:24:34 David NMN Apple–>finally,
9/19/05 20:24:49 Jim Borden–>I talked with randy F and Gary L about my concerns and asked them to get the ropes tightened,
9/19/05 20:24:56 Leon Garfield–>We have not done the best at it but we feel if we do we will be shooting alone….Thanks Jim,
9/19/05 20:25:38 Jim Borden–>many that come to your range have expressed to me that they want rules enforced–they will have to get involved at causing them to be enforced,
9/19/05 20:26:07 Jim Borden–>ready to talk rifle rules?,
9/19/05 20:26:15 Francis Becigneul–>Sure,
9/19/05 20:26:17 *** Grosbier–>go to it,
9/19/05 20:26:18 Leon Garfield–>We can do it with no problem, I was the only one at the states that weighed there rifle, Thanks Jim I have to run’;
9/19/05 20:26:29 Jim Borden–>thank you Leon,
9/19/05 20:26:38 Bill Sargent–>agree Leon we also need clarification re: what must be enforced and what can be local choice,
9/19/05 20:26:49 *** Grosbier–>I brought certified weights but they were not used,
9/19/05 20:27:02 Jim Borden–>***–why not,
9/19/05 20:27:13 Leon Garfield–>Yes *** they were we set the scale with them
9/19/05 20:27:23 Leon Garfield–>before I weighed my gun
9/19/05 20:27:38 *** Grosbier–>I really cannot answer that Jim I simply informed them I had made them available
9/19/05 20:27:51 Jim Borden–>you mean at Union County?
9/19/05 20:27:58 *** Grosbier–>no Vermont
9/19/05 20:28:30 Jim Borden–>any questions on HV, LV or SP rifles?’;
9/19/05 20:28:34 Leon Garfield–>we did use them but didn’t see any guns
9/19/05 20:28:45 *** Grosbier–>no organized weighing of rifles was done to my knowledge
9/19/05 20:28:56 Jim Borden–>Jim—-you had ? on stocks other night–now is time for it
9/19/05 20:29:11 bob beyer–>I never knew that there were scales in Vt.
9/19/05 20:29:38 Jim Borden–>Jim G –you there?
9/19/05 20:29:41 David NMN Apple–>Jim. how far back from the front of the stock is the width dimension measured?
9/19/05 20:29:47 *** Grosbier–>do other portions of group shooting rules apply to score shooting other than varmint rifle specs
9/19/05 20:29:55 Jim Borden–>anywhere David
9/19/05 20:30:00 JIM GOODY–>HOWDY, is the e-board going to make a ruling on the STOCK CHECKER ISSUE in the near future’;
9/19/05 20:30:02 David NMN Apple–>thank you
9/19/05 20:30:40 Jim Borden–>Jim–actually no–the group committee has the checker–has used it some and will be using it–it works–no decision needed other than that
9/19/05 20:30:47 David NMN Apple–>how can the power of say a 6 power scope be checked ?
9/19/05 20:31:19 JIM GOODY–>why the group comm and not the score comm?
9/19/05 20:31:26 JIM GOODY–>as well
9/19/05 20:31:40 Jim Borden–>David–that is one we have taken for granted for ages–we check to see it is set at 6x and we used to look through each htr rifle scope to ensure it was not boosted
9/19/05 20:31:54 Francis Becigneul–>Yes there does have to be a decision made re: the stock checker. The rule book gives the method for checking the taper of the stock and the checker isn’t in the rule book
9/19/05 20:32:13 Jim Borden–>Jim–cause the score committee rep at meeting said –you guys tell us where you come out with it (Gary L)
9/19/05 20:32:36 JIM GOODY–>hmmmmm
9/19/05 20:32:52 Jim Borden–>The checker actually uses the rulebook technique to find the angle
9/19/05 20:33:08 David NMN Apple–>we have a gun around here that has set numerous world records in VH and the owner never had to have it weighed, checked dimensionally in the stock or case and the scope was never verified. HE will tell you this and DOES NOT think it is right’;
9/19/05 20:33:17 Francis Becigneul–>Doesn’t matter. The rule book says rod guide, rod tape measure.’;
9/19/05 20:33:22 JIM GOODY–>it just seems to me that sometime the checker issue will get ugly at a match
9/19/05 20:33:28 frank in the laurels–>wow..it’s a luv fest
9/19/05 20:33:40 frank in the laurels–>what a line up
9/19/05 20:34:03 *** Grosbier–>this is the IBS ,

9/19/05 20:34:04 frank in the laurels–>what the fight about tonight !!
9/19/05 20:34:19 Dwayne Garfield–>it got real quiet
9/19/05 20:34:22 Jim Borden–>Francis–show me where it says that–it lays out the angle and gives no procedure in rulebook
9/19/05 20:34:32 Francis Becigneul–>I’m trying to start a fight regarding the use of the stock checker.
9/19/05 20:34:33 frank in the laurels–>rules…what rules..no need, just put holes in the target and be happy’;
9/19/05 20:34:56 John Scopelliti’,”‘I think it would be good to use it as an “”informational device”" on its forst intro.’;”,
9/19/05 20:35:01 *** Grosbier–>please Frank we are trying to hold a serious discussion here
9/19/05 20:35:07 Jim Borden–>John–that is the intent
9/19/05 20:35:08 frank in the laurels–>ok
9/19/05 20:35:10 Bill Sargent–>Jim would there be a problem with going to a system where the winning guns ie any that get points are checked after the match and save on the trouble of checking everyone?
9/19/05 20:35:16 Admin–>Frank…. Jim Borden is going thru the rule book
9/19/05 20:35:32 Francis Becigneul–>Group shooting rules B. 2
9/19/05 20:35:53 Ron Baldner–>who is frank?
9/19/05 20:36:03 *** Grosbier–>unfortunately Bill that creates its own problem when a person is disqualified after winning
9/19/05 20:36:04 frank in the laurels–>just a idiot
9/19/05 20:36:18 Jim Borden–>Francis–says nothing about how to measure it–only lays out the maximum line or minimum angle
9/19/05 20:36:30 frank in the laurels–>this is way to serious, later’;
9/19/05 20:36:37 *** Grosbier–>not a wrong action but creates bad feelings
9/19/05 20:37:05 Jim Borden–>***–I agree–I hate it when rifles are checked after a match has started (after M1)
9/19/05 20:37:39 Bill Sargent–>dg only if you are DQ’d have the equip available for anyone to check their guns if they want but only measure the winners
9/19/05 20:37:39 JIM GOODY–>Jim has the checker been used at a match and the results of the test made known to the group of reffs?
9/19/05 20:38:11 *** Grosbier–>a shooter is still responsible for his rifle but there are a lot less bad feelings when they get a chance to fix it
9/19/05 20:38:31 Jim Borden–>having a toe formed by a straight line drawn from the toe of a substantially vertical butt with a 13 1/4 inch pull starting at a point at least 4 inches below the axis of the bore and extending forward to the centerline of the barrel at a point no more than 18 inches forward of the boltface
9/19/05 20:39:19 Bill Sargent–>as I said voluntary measure and fix before if u don’t do it and have a problem how can you feel bad
9/19/05 20:39:30 Jim Borden–>above is what rulebook says about stock taper –says nothing on how to measure it and George’s fixture measures it–I think we should have two or three–at least one for score committee and one for group committee
9/19/05 20:40:04 Jim Borden–>Francis–what is your concern with the fixture?
9/19/05 20:40:32 Keith Skjerdal (Cdn)–>Do the EDGE stocks pass Jim? They have an almost flat butt.. and no taper…
9/19/05 20:40:49 Francis Becigneul–>It was used in Dublin and the rifle could be moved to read whatever angle the ref wanted it to read. It was an NBRSA match.
9/19/05 20:41:20 John Scopelliti–>Different fixture.
9/19/05 20:41:24 Jim Borden–>Keith –yes as long as the barreled action is bedded parallel with top of stock
9/19/05 20:41:27 Francis Becigneul–>Slightly
9/19/05 20:41:45 Francis Becigneul–>John
9/19/05 20:41:58 Jim Borden–>the one I had here worked fine and rifle did not have to be moved to read the accepted angle
9/19/05 20:42:08 Francis Becigneul–>The NBRSA says the rod guide etc. and that is where I am confused.
9/19/05 20:42:16 Jim Borden–>ok
9/19/05 20:43:20 Jim Borden’,”‘We need to get more people involved in enforcing the rules and being part of the “”fix”"‘;”,
9/19/05 20:43:53 Pete Wass–>Folks
9/19/05 20:44:16 Jim Borden’,”‘when I get involved at match I am hard nose–but on phone or here –it is “”this should be done”"–well all of us need to be doing it’;”,
9/19/05 20:44:18 JIM GOODY–>Match directors have to be on board and make it happen ,imho’;
9/19/05 20:44:29 Jim Borden–>Jim–I agree
9/19/05 20:45:08 JIM GOODY–>as a match director you will follow the rule book or be gone!!!!!!!
9/19/05 20:45:11 Jim Borden–>Pete–? for you–why did you not challenge the individual at Union County who routinely went in front of bench to pick up his rest and bags?
9/19/05 20:45:16 John Scopelliti–>A good idea would be to announce in advance that all stocks would be fixture checked at the match. Then there is no surprise or confusion.
9/19/05 20:45:48 Pete Wass–>I didn’t see him do it Jim.
9/19/05 20:45:56 Francis Becigneul–>And put the fixture in the rule book
9/19/05 20:46:00 Jim Borden–>oh–but I watched you watch him
9/19/05 20:46:11 John Scopelliti–>Good!
9/19/05 20:46:27 Pete Wass–>I have no clue what you are talking about Jim
9/19/05 20:46:55 Jim Borden–>Francis–the fixture does not belong in rulebook anymore tha that we have to use a set of Mitutoyo micrometers to measure stock width–imho
9/19/05 20:47:14 *** Grosbier–>I don’t really see the need to spell out what methods can be used to measure compliance with a written rule
9/19/05 20:47:15 Jim Borden–>trying to understand why you think the fixture needs to be in the rulebook
9/19/05 20:47:16 Bill Sargent–>jg agree ALL match directors need to be on board for enforcement to work
9/19/05 20:47:21 Francis Becigneul–>WE have allowed the R.O.s to get lax. WE can put them back on track.
9/19/05 20:47:59 Pete Wass–>How do we measure 6-X scope power ?
9/19/05 20:48:08 Jim Borden–>too late Pete
9/19/05 20:48:21 Jim Borden–>sorry–we talked that one before
9/19/05 20:48:27 Francis Becigneul–>When I saw another’s rifle moved around in the fixture, I disliked it immediately. It was not held stable.’;
9/19/05 20:49:05 Jim Borden–>then we need to address that issue directly Francis—putting fixture in rulebook will not eliminate your concern
9/19/05 20:49:16 Pete Wass–>Sorry, I was trying to get home!!!!’;
9/19/05 20:49:20 Francis Becigneul–>Again, I’m confusing NBRSA and IBS. NBRSA spells out the procedure to measures a stock and the fixture isn’t the method.’;
9/19/05 20:49:27 Jim Borden–>Pete–I know no ill intent meant
9/19/05 20:49:46 *** Grosbier–>I am sure the transcript will be posted tomorrow Pete
9/19/05 20:49:54 Jim Borden–>IBS has stayed away from how to measure and has placed the limits on the dimensions
9/19/05 20:50:01 Francis Becigneul–>Okay
9/19/05 20:50:05 Francis Becigneul–>Sorry,
9/19/05 20:50:35 Jim Borden–>Francis–we still need to take you r input on stability of rifle in fixture so that it can be used,
9/19/05 20:50:55 Francis Becigneul–>That would be fine with me.,
9/19/05 20:51:33 Jim Borden–>give me a call sometime b4 winter meeting so I can understand the complete concern (rifle damage, measurement instability, etc)’;
9/19/05 20:51:42 Francis Becigneul–>Alright,
9/19/05 20:52:07 Jim Borden–>other questions on the rifle rules?,
9/19/05 20:52:21 *** Grosbier–>truthfully I have never heard of a stock being ruled illegal except by too much stock tape mass manufacturing a stock that did not make legal would seem silly,
9/19/05 20:52:35 *** Grosbier–>foolish,
9/19/05 20:52:41 Jim Borden–>right ***,
9/19/05 20:52:55 Francis Becigneul–>I had to take the tape off my Metric stock in Alabama,
9/19/05 20:53:11 bob beyer–>magazine capacity,
9/19/05 20:53:17 Jim Borden–>had some of my fancy painted stocks filed to make rules a few years ago,
9/19/05 20:53:23 *** Grosbier–>and was it illegally wide?,
9/19/05 20:53:25 Jim Borden–>bob–what is ?,
9/19/05 20:53:43 Francis Becigneul–>***. Mine was with the tape on it.,
9/19/05 20:53:51 bob beyer–>how many and how to check it,
9/19/05 20:54:04 nickloy–>***,I have been gone for a while and cannot find you reference to the plug remaing in a score target, could you please tell me were the rule is located .’;
9/19/05 20:54:16 Dwayne Garfield–>what is the tol.,
9/19/05 20:54:26 Francis Becigneul–>zero,
9/19/05 20:54:39 Jim Borden’,”’8) A magazine shall be capable of holding two or more loaded rounds of ammunition.’;”
9/19/05 20:54:52 Jim Borden–>it is checked by stuffing loaded rounds or dummies in it,
9/19/05 20:54:54 Dwayne Garfield–>weight has tol,
9/19/05 20:54:54 *** Grosbier–>Page 19 F2 online rules PDF,
9/19/05 20:55:02 bob beyer–>ty,
9/19/05 20:55:12 David NMN Apple–>I would love to see that enforced,
9/19/05 20:55:12 Francis Becigneul–>That rule should be changed to say two rounds of the ammunition that is being used.,
9/19/05 20:55:20 David NMN Apple–>correct,
9/19/05 20:55:54 Jim Borden–>makes sense Francis–someone should get that written up,
9/19/05 20:56:02 bob beyer–>I know some guns pay no attention to that one,
9/19/05 20:56:02 *** Grosbier–>2 22 rimfires rounds complies with current rule,
9/19/05 20:56:09 Francis Becigneul–>As written, you could put two loaded rounds of 22rimfire.
9/19/05 20:56:20 Francis Becigneul–>Duh,
9/19/05 20:56:28 Jim Borden–>nick–did you find what you were looking for?
9/19/05 20:56:31 Francis Becigneul–>I shall make a note.
9/19/05 20:57:08 *** Grosbier–>does the magazine cut even have to be bigger than a 22 RF
9/19/05 20:57:18 Jim Borden–>Jim Goody as the only member of score committee here tonight-please make a note to follow up on the rewrite of that rule
9/19/05 20:57:26 Francis Becigneul–>Rule doesn’t say it does.
9/19/05 20:57:33 JIM GOODY–>ok
9/19/05 20:57:37 Jim Borden–>also–thank you Francis
9/19/05 20:57:54 Francis Becigneul–>You’re welcome
9/19/05 20:57:58 nickloy–>Jim, I have not been able to find the rule and could use some help with the rule’;
9/19/05 20:58:06 Dwayne Garfield–>I have a brand new book that came today and it doesn’t match yours
9/19/05 20:58:13 Jim Borden–>imho (which will get me in trouble like Gator bags) hunter rifles have really strayed from original intent
9/19/05 20:58:28 Jim Borden–>Dwayne–it won’t
9/19/05 20:58:57 Francis Becigneul–>Strayed in what way?
9/19/05 20:59:00 Ron Baldner–>I agree Jim, all my hunting rifles have brakes.’;
9/19/05 20:59:02 Al Nyhus–>Jim, isn’t it correct that a magazine box need not be used as long as there is a magazine cut in the stock?’;
9/19/05 20:59:10 David NMN Apple–>the intent is clear. the practice is other wise and heads are turned
9/19/05 20:59:18 *** Grosbier–>IBS allowed custom actions so as not to Handicap NBRSA shooters which is certainly more than NBRSA ever did for the convenience of IBS members’;
9/19/05 20:59:25 Pete Wass–>I would agree with you Jim. I think they should be made of Factory actions at the minimum’;
9/19/05 20:59:41 *** Grosbier–>that’s an NBSA rule al’;
9/19/05 21:00:07 Rod Franzius–>Nick,” Section VI) Score Shooting…F. Scoring 2) Scoring plug is to be placed in target by Scorer and not removed until a decision is made……”"”,
9/19/05 21:00:10 Ron Baldner–>Any custom commercial action is a factory action Pete,
9/19/05 21:00:11 Jim Borden–>we did away with required safety–we did away with required magazine capacity with proven feed from magazine–that quips the stuff you guys just mentioned,
9/19/05 21:00:29 *** Grosbier–>IBS rules say capable of holding two or more loaded rounds,
9/19/05 21:00:53 Pete Wass–>So, by saying that , you allow custom everything
9/19/05 21:00:59 Al Nyhus–>But there doesn’t need to be an actual sheet metal magazine box, correct?
9/19/05 21:01:01 Jim Borden–>yes–***–but it does not require the box–it can be a molded magazine in stock,
9/19/05 21:01:08 *** Grosbier–>they do not currently in my opinion require appropriate cal,
9/19/05 21:01:19 Ron Baldner–>no, the key word is commercial
9/19/05 21:01:23 *** Grosbier–>sure,
9/19/05 21:01:50 Pete Wass–>So, everyone’s action is commercial. Put a number on it
9/19/05 21:01:50 Jim Borden–>that is where the ability to feed issue came in,
9/19/05 21:02:07 Ron Baldner–>1,
9/19/05 21:02:13 *** Grosbier–>referee used to go around sticking their fingers in magazine checking it I have not seen that done in years,
9/19/05 21:02:16 David NMN Apple–>no hunter gun in use can feed,
9/19/05 21:02:18 Pete Wass–>Say 100 production actions per year,
9/19/05 21:02:24 Jim Borden–>guys-let’s slow down
9/19/05 21:02:30 Al Nyhus–>Mine can, David.,
9/19/05 21:02:36 Pete Wass–>My 700 can and will feed
9/19/05 21:02:46 *** Grosbier–>not true David but most cannot
9/19/05 21:02:47 Jim Borden–>point is that hunter guns are not currently what the original intent was
9/19/05 21:03:02 Ron Baldner–>ya no brake
9/19/05 21:03:19 David NMN Apple–>make up your mind ***
9/19/05 21:03:22 Jim Borden–>beyond brakes–Ron
9/19/05 21:03:29 Bill Sargent–>guys,guys,guys, I understand all the stuff you are talking about but could the IBS please create a match director guide that is simple and short that tells us what MUST be done and what MAY be done to run sanctioned matches. It hopefully would lead to the consistency we all are searching for.
9/19/05 21:03:53 JIM GOODY–>there is one already
9/19/05 21:04:02 *** Grosbier–>I said nothing inconsistent David
9/19/05 21:04:15 David NMN Apple–>if the match director followed the rules ALREADY in place
9/19/05 21:04:36 Bill Sargent–>jg and it spells out must and may?
9/19/05 21:04:50 JIM GOODY–>good ?
9/19/05 21:05:07 Ron Baldner–>what’s up next time Jim?
9/19/05 21:05:44 Jim Borden–>I think score shooting as most here are in that category
9/19/05 21:05:53 Ron Baldner–>cool
9/19/05 21:06:01 Al Nyhus–>//32
9/19/05 21:06:09 Jim Borden–>then Monday–I want to go over rule change procedure


Transcript 4

9/21/05 20:03:58 Jim Borden–>hi all
9/21/05 20:04:02 bob beyer–>Jim
9/21/05 20:04:03 Pete Wass–>Lads
9/21/05 20:04:06 bob beyer–>peter
9/21/05 20:04:08 Halldor Nikulasson–>Pete
9/21/05 20:04:16 Dwayne Garfield–>Pete
9/21/05 20:04:29 Stephen Perry–>lucky Jim wasn’t here for the gun weighing comments
9/21/05 20:04:38 Jim Borden–>Leon–I was wrong about something the other night-all rifles do not have to be weighed–all rifles are to be inspected
9/21/05 20:04:50 Jim Borden’,”‘I. Inspection of Equipment”
“1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches”,,
“2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line”,,
9/21/05 20:04:52 Leon Garfield–>for what???
9/21/05 20:05:08 Bill Sargent–>lg/dg/dg did we weigh guns? no ok we should have according the prs of our association however at present my understanding is that weighing is the only requirement of rifle inspection for a sanctioned match,,
9/21/05 20:05:49 Bill Sargent–>hi jb I was typing and didn’t see u arrive,,
9/21/05 20:05:56 Leon Garfield–>So what does that mean JIM,,
9/21/05 20:06:00 Leon Garfield–>says MAY,,
9/21/05 20:06:12 Dwayne Garfield–>We were a knew club, we only done as we were told, we always tried to do right, then some of the people telling us what to do started bitching
9/21/05 20:06:14 Leon Garfield–>referees shall,,
9/21/05 20:06:14 Jim Borden–>see the pasted note above–all rifles are to be inspected–but it does not say what inspections are required–it is discretion of referees–at most matches–that means they are weighed,,
9/21/05 20:06:26 Pete Wass–>May is a fickle woman,,
9/21/05 20:06:27 Leon Garfield–>ok,,
9/21/05 20:06:30 Stephen Perry–>what good does it do to weigh your own gun. is this the honor system or does a shooter pack up and go home during a match if he hasn’t made weight,,
9/21/05 20:06:54 Jim Borden–>referees weigh the rifles,,
9/21/05 20:07:11 Leon Garfield–>all of them or selected ones,,
9/21/05 20:07:26 Stephen Perry–>I would not select referees that did not weigh guns at san gabriel.,,
9/21/05 20:07:29 bob beyer–>up to the ref,,
9/21/05 20:07:41 *** Grosbier–>contestants can weigh their own rifle for their own information,,
9/21/05 20:07:45 Jim Borden–>competitors can check their own at any time–but the referees are to inspect all rifles—they may weigh some-measure some or whatever–usually–they are weighed,,
9/21/05 20:08:10 Leon Garfield–>been to 12 shoots never had a gun checked yet
9/21/05 20:08:36 Pete Wass–>Usually, refs only check scoring issues from what I have seen
9/21/05 20:08:39 Jim Borden–>Leon–that is because SCORE SHOOTING has gotten very LAX about the rules and that is going to change
9/21/05 20:08:50 bob beyer–>that’s what we are trying to straighten out Leon
9/21/05 20:08:55 *** Grosbier–>that will probably change Leon
9/21/05 20:09:16 Stephen Perry–>a scale and weights are always available at my matches and ref weigh all sp/var guns every time. no big deal takes 10-15 min
9/21/05 20:09:20 Jim Borden–>hi Dave
9/21/05 20:09:26 David NMN Apple–>hi Jim
9/21/05 20:09:30 Jim Borden–>that is right Stephen
9/21/05 20:09:33 Leon Garfield–>Hi David
9/21/05 20:09:46 bob beyer–>David
9/21/05 20:09:50 Stephen Perry–>thanks Jim
9/21/05 20:09:55 Jim Borden–>Leon–do not take things personal–I have not heard anyone griping about Vermont
9/21/05 20:10:09 bob beyer–>vt. is great
9/21/05 20:10:22 Bill Sargent–>JB please I’m getting confused 48 hrs. ago guns needed to be weighed at each match. Now all inspections are at the discretion of the refs? i.e. nothing is required
9/21/05 20:10:29 Pete Wass–>Vt has done a wonderful job for a new club
9/21/05 20:10:44 bob beyer–>for sure
9/21/05 20:11:16 Dwayne Garfield–>Hi Butch you old rascal
9/21/05 20:11:16 Leon Garfield–>Alls I am saying is that ALL clubs need to do it to make it work. I have no Problem with any of the rules my gun is well within them, I just don’t want people saying I’m not going there they inspect guns and no one else does….
9/21/05 20:11:20 Leon Garfield–>Butch
9/21/05 20:11:23 Jim Borden–>Bill–I mis-spoke—I reread the rulebook section and it says all guns are to be inspected–I pasted it in above–I will paste it here again–nothing confusing about it
9/21/05 20:11:28 *** Grosbier–>He said he was wrong Bill
9/21/05 20:11:33 bob beyer–>he said he had made a mistake bill
9/21/05 20:11:38 Jim Borden’,”‘I. Inspection of Equipment”,
“1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches”,,,
“2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line”,,,
9/21/05 20:12:08 Pete Wass–>BS, this points up the need to make the rules both understandable and consistent
9/21/05 20:12:27 Bill Sargent–>k Jim so NO inspection of guns is required at any match including nat’s etc. in LBS
9/21/05 20:12:33 Stephen Perry–>bill match directors that don’t respect the weighing rule will always pick refs that don’t weigh
9/21/05 20:12:37 Jim Borden–>Pete–read it–it is very clear–every rifle will be inspected and it is the referees discretion of what to inspect–
9/21/05 20:12:38 Bill Sargent–>IBS
9/21/05 20:13:00 Jim Borden–>Bill–no all guns will be inspected
9/21/05 20:13:02 *** Grosbier–>no Pete it shows anybody can make a slightly incorrect statement that’s all,
9/21/05 20:13:07 Pete Wass–>Jim, it can’t be very clear if there was a misunderstanding
9/21/05 20:13:38 Bill Sargent–>ok Jim they will be inspected and what is checked is up to the refs?,
9/21/05 20:13:44 Leon Garfield–>I am going to write a new rule for inspection for next year, I think it should only be done to the top 3 in each class,
9/21/05 20:13:55 Jim Borden–>Pete–I have had it with this BS—I made a mistake–I am human—it has been a practice for years in group shooting to weigh all guns to meet the inspection requirement,
9/21/05 20:13:55 bob beyer–>how can you misunderstand that statement,
9/21/05 20:13:57 Leon Garfield–>the dead line is JULY 1st right Jim,
9/21/05 20:14:14 Jim Borden–>Bill–that is right,
9/21/05 20:14:16 Stephen Perry–>what happens in IBS if a shooter refuses to have his gun weighed,
9/21/05 20:14:21 Jim Borden–>right Leon,
9/21/05 20:14:32 Jim Borden–>he gets DQ’d,
9/21/05 20:14:33 *** Grosbier–>Problem with that Leon is inspection after the fact sometimes creates bad feelings,
9/21/05 20:14:57 Leon Garfield–>Not if your legal and we are all supposed to be,
9/21/05 20:14:58 Jim Borden–>Leon–I do not like inspecting winners–the competitor should have an opportunity to make things right,
9/21/05 20:15:02 Pete Wass–>I wasn’t picking at you Jim. I didn’t know you had made the statement.,
9/21/05 20:15:07 Dwayne Garfield–>then you should not shot if gun is illegal,
9/21/05 20:15:17 Leon Garfield–>I think we all know what the rules are so we should be legal
9/21/05 20:15:57 Jim Borden–>I have been in this sport for 28 years and I believe that the way to inspect equipment is before match 1 begins
9/21/05 20:16:10 Pete Wass–>I think there should be a meeting before every match where everything is explained to competitors. Mandatory attendance
9/21/05 20:16:14 *** Grosbier–>all contestants are not cheaters some times a mistake is made like changing to a scope you did not realize was heavier
9/21/05 20:16:51 Jim Borden–>Pete–the range officer reads very specific instructions and all competitors are present–and I bet I could take a poll on what was said and almost no one would know
9/21/05 20:16:55 Stephen Perry–>if more ranges would weigh guns more shooters would demand guns be weighed so to avoid not knowing if they made weight
9/21/05 20:17:04 Bill Sargent–>k Jim that’s no problem at all> It gives the match directors and ref lee way to determine infractions. The part in the rule discussions that have been missing is that the people who spend their time running events only want to do the right thing. All they are looking for is support from IBS and guidance on how to do things.
9/21/05 20:17:05 Leon Garfield–>Well I am new Jim and I don’t know how inspection works cause I ain’t see any
9/21/05 20:17:12 Pete Wass–>I agree Jim.
9/21/05 20:17:29 Jim Borden–>he explains what to do for hold your fire and cease fire and crossfire and no one pays attention
9/21/05 20:17:31 bob beyer–>the rule you pasted Jim says preferably as shooters leave line.
9/21/05 20:17:43 Pete Wass–>That is why I think a meeting could help in that regard
9/21/05 20:17:49 Jim Borden–>leave line from warm-up has been the practice
9/21/05 20:18:13 Jim Borden–>if no warm-up–practice was to weigh on the way to the line
9/21/05 20:18:41 *** Grosbier–>shooting an overweight rifle in Warm-up is not grounds for DQ
9/21/05 20:18:58 bob beyer–>thx
9/21/05 20:19:03 Jim Borden–>***–that is correct,
9/21/05 20:19:30 Pete Wass–>I think everything should be done before the event starts, including warm-up
9/21/05 20:19:38 bob beyer–>when may they omit warm-up,
9/21/05 20:19:39 *** Grosbier–>but if you win and are found overweight it is mandatory,
9/21/05 20:20:12 Stephen Perry–>in group not so ***. if wu can count as a wr group,
9/21/05 20:20:14 Jim Borden–>warm-up may be omitted when two aggregates are fired in one day,
9/21/05 20:20:19 David NMN Apple–>Jim, if a creedmore goes backwards into the warm-up shouldn’t the warm-up fall under the match conditions?
9/21/05 20:20:26 Bill Sargent–>As I understand now checking, not checking, and when to check is up to refs?
9/21/05 20:20:32 David NMN Apple–>over weight gun should not be shot at all,
9/21/05 20:20:42 bob beyer–>thx again,
9/21/05 20:20:46 Jim Borden–>Bill-that is entirely correct,
9/21/05 20:20:54 Bill Sargent–>k thanks,
9/21/05 20:21:12 Halldor Nikulasson–>night guys and take care!!,
9/21/05 20:21:15 Jim Borden–>Dave–makes sense–and last I knew creedmore does not use the warm-up,
9/21/05 20:21:23 Jim Borden–>Night hall,
9/21/05 20:21:27 Bill Sargent–>tk hn,
9/21/05 20:21:28 bob beyer–>see ya hall
9/21/05 20:21:31 Stephen Perry–>night hall
9/21/05 20:21:58 *** Grosbier–>I agree and it is contestants responsibility but if shown to be overweight before actual match it does not hurt near as much
9/21/05 20:22:09 Jim Borden–>I agree ***
9/21/05 20:22:39 Jim Borden–>Dave–when does creedmore go back to warm-up?
9/21/05 20:22:54 *** Grosbier–>gets back to illegal rifles are not always intentionally so
9/21/05 20:23:02 Pete Wass–>I wonder why anyone would want to push the limits that hard to be overweight
9/21/05 20:23:21 Jim Borden–>Pete–some gunsmiths use baby scales
9/21/05 20:23:51 Pete Wass–>Ah so, I use my Stren scales which seem to be perfect
9/21/05 20:23:53 Jim Borden–>not supporting that–just want to give the competitor the benefit of the doubt
9/21/05 20:23:54 David NMN Apple–>if 2 are tied throughout doesn’t the tie breaker go back into the warm-up?
9/21/05 20:24:07 Jim Borden–>David–no
9/21/05 20:24:19 Bill Sargent–>guys you are not requiring weighing how can you say how and when it should be done?
9/21/05 20:24:20 Jim Borden–>David–I had better check–I think no
9/21/05 20:24:35 David NMN Apple–>thank you
9/21/05 20:24:48 Jim Borden–>Bill–I am not saying when and how it should be done–I suggested when it should be done
9/21/05 20:25:01 David NMN Apple–>how is the creedmore broken then?
9/21/05 20:25:35 Jim Borden–>if it is all 25 x–there is no breaking it–or if the x string is exactly the same-there is no breaking it
9/21/05 20:25:40 Pete Wass–>Several Winter meetings ago there was a long discussion about weighing. As I recall,
9/21/05 20:25:46 bob beyer–>lot of guys double tap or don’t shoot all bulls in warm-up
9/21/05 20:25:48 Stephen Perry–>true *** but shooting a possible wr with a gun overweight gun known by the shooter in the wu and switching to a legal weight gun to be weighed later is grounds for a dq if the ref can corner the overweight gun. no possible wr.
9/21/05 20:26:30 Bill Sargent–>k again no problem if we don’t have to do it then we can decide when and how and where and then go to the rules to see what to do if there is a problem correct?
9/21/05 20:26:31 Pete Wass–>Weighed rifles should be marked
9/21/05 20:26:34 David NMN Apple–>thank you
9/21/05 20:26:36 Jim Borden–>if a shooter shoots warm-up with overweight rifle and shoots a possible record–then the rifle is weighed–the record does not count
9/21/05 20:26:42 David j. halblom sr.–>wow!
9/21/05 20:26:50 Jim Borden–>they are marked on the weigh in sheet
9/21/05 20:26:51 Stephen Perry–>true Pete
9/21/05 20:27:10 Pete Wass–>Not the rifle itself though
9/21/05 20:27:21 Ashley Carr–>good night, got to go.
9/21/05 20:27:35 Pete Wass–>A sticker or something should be used
9/21/05 20:27:41 Stephen Perry–>night
9/21/05 20:27:42 Jim Borden–>right Pete–and maybe we have some dishonest people–buut I would like to believe no one is going to deliberately cheat,
9/21/05 20:27:44 bob beyer–>see ya,
9/21/05 20:28:22 Stephen Perry–>was ash a guy or gal,
9/21/05 20:28:38 Jim Borden–>Bill–are you still concerned about the weighing and inspecting thing?,
9/21/05 20:28:45 Pete Wass–>Well, a system makes everyone honest
9/21/05 20:28:56 Jim Borden–>No it does not Pete,
9/21/05 20:28:56 bob beyer–>are they marked on the sheet by s/n,
9/21/05 20:29:10 *** Grosbier–>contestant #,
9/21/05 20:29:11 Jim Borden–>they are marked on sheet by referee,
9/21/05 20:29:15 Pete Wass–>No Bob , by competitor number
9/21/05 20:29:15 Bill Sargent–>I hate to repeat- what weigh in sheet? We may or may not have one depending on what the refs for our particular match decide to check? Right?,
9/21/05 20:29:33 Stephen Perry–>NBRSA is guilty of not weighing at a lot of matches too,
9/21/05 20:29:55 Jim Borden–>Bill–that is right–seems like you have a burning issue here that will not let go–why not verbalize it?,
9/21/05 20:30:18 Pete Wass–>A grease pencil would work just fine,
9/21/05 20:30:31 David j. halblom sr.–>I must state that at ALL regional and National events, NBRSA, I have been weighed!
9/21/05 20:31:00 Jim Borden–>I believe referees are adults and we do not need more specificity on what needs checked and when it needs to be checked–we just need to have referees that DO check,
9/21/05 20:31:04 *** Grosbier–>WRITING ON a contestants rifle is not going to go over well Pete
9/21/05 20:31:13 Stephen Perry–>At Midland guns were weighed in HV only
9/21/05 20:31:23 Pete Wass–>A problem we face is many refs don’t know the rules
9/21/05 20:31:37 David j. halblom sr.–>I believe that the range officer books suggest weigh in. What more would you like?
9/21/05 20:31:51 Jim Borden–>Pete–guess I agree with that and that is why I picked the referees for last weekend
9/21/05 20:31:52 Pete Wass–>A grease pencil will never harm anything ***
9/21/05 20:32:06 David j. halblom sr.–>NBRSA uses a sticker to show that the rifle has been weighed
9/21/05 20:32:13 Dwayne Garfield–>suggests is the word
9/21/05 20:32:32 Stephen Perry–>at Nationals sometimes
9/21/05 20:32:41 Dwayne Garfield–>doesn’t say has to
9/21/05 20:32:41 Bill Sargent–>absolutely not never been weighed (my rifle) I’m new this year and love the sport but with only 4-5 br shooters here we all need to understand what to do.. Our only agenda is making the sport grow and having done this a lot in another sport I know that firm understanding of the rules is the only way to make people happy
9/21/05 20:32:51 Pete Wass–>Something should be done to make sure more people know the rllesif they are to be refs; like a testing procedure
9/21/05 20:33:13 David j. halblom sr.–>My current hunter gun has been to 4 Nationals. There are 4 stickers on it
9/21/05 20:33:38 Pete Wass–>Good Point David H.
9/21/05 20:33:57 Stephen Perry–>Hunter true David Group not so. I have been to 8 Nats and only have 1 sticker
9/21/05 20:34:38 Jim Borden–>Pete–who is going to administer it? I have worked on the board for 23 years and am getting mighty tired –volunteers are few and far in between—-rules that require this kind of stuff need to come with a staffing solution cause it ain’t going to be me
9/21/05 20:34:43 Leon Garfield–>I’m not good enough to go to a national…..LOL,
9/21/05 20:34:43 Bill Sargent–>if not happy at least coming back,
9/21/05 20:35:05 David NMN Apple–>Pete for administrator,
9/21/05 20:35:21 Jim Borden–>Bill-I agree consistency in administering the rules is important,
9/21/05 20:35:22 *** Grosbier–>anybody is good enough to go to a National Leon,
9/21/05 20:35:25 David j. halblom sr.–>Bill,” you are absolutely correct. It is incumbent upon the officials of each shoot to familiar with the rule book. But they are “”volunteers”". How do we force them to read?”,
9/21/05 20:35:39 Pete Wass–>Perhaps we need to contract outside with someone. I don’t mind paying more if things are tightened up,
9/21/05 20:35:48 Jim Borden–>The range officer guide that Michelle Sutton put together is a great guide for ranges,
9/21/05 20:35:53 David j. halblom sr.–>Leon, we are ALL GOOD Enough!
9/21/05 20:36:30 Leon Garfield–>So you think the rules need to be tightened up Pete,
9/21/05 20:36:35 Leon Garfield–>To loose,
9/21/05 20:36:46 Pete Wass–>I have been president of a volunteer Community Development org for 5 years. I am tired of it too but someone’s got to do it and I have the desire still,
9/21/05 20:36:59 Bill Sargent–>jb,dh, you don’t. You just let them know what is required and then when they do their best you support them or if they f—- up you also support them and educate them and move on
9/21/05 20:37:13 Jim Borden–>Good for you Pete–maybe you can put some energy into the IBS,
9/21/05 20:37:19 *** Grosbier–>Referees should be picked for their experience and based on your belief they can be unbiased in my opinion,
9/21/05 20:37:27 Pete Wass–>Yes I do and I think everyone needs to know them and that everyone running an event needs to know them,
9/21/05 20:37:28 David j. halblom sr.–>Pete, what you are describing is very similar the the SCCA’s official school. But I would offer that even it is rife with lack of knowledge/experience
9/21/05 20:37:44 Jim Borden–>Bill- I agree and that is what we do
9/21/05 20:38:01 Leon Garfield–>So when are you going to start Pete
9/21/05 20:38:09 Jim Borden–>I agree and that is what we do
9/21/05 20:38:17 Pete Wass–>Start what Leon ?
9/21/05 20:38:30 Leon Garfield–>tightening up the rules
9/21/05 20:38:49 Jim Borden–>I spent and hour and a half with the union county people Sunday night recapping things and gleaning the learning’s and improvements for the future
9/21/05 20:38:57 Pete Wass–>I thought this might be a beginning; hope it is anyway
9/21/05 20:39:19 Jim Borden–>Have not seen you do anything in that direction yet Pete
9/21/05 20:39:26 Bill Sargent–>yup a volunteer is worth 20 competitors every day
9/21/05 20:39:39 Pete Wass–>First there has to be the recognition that there is a need
9/21/05 20:39:45 Leon Garfield–>were out of volunteers bill
9/21/05 20:40:03 Jim Borden–>Leon-common story there
9/21/05 20:40:12 David NMN Apple–>a great start begins with an educated shooter. if the existing rules are not being followed, there is a remedy/procedure for correction
9/21/05 20:40:15 Leon Garfield–>I agree
9/21/05 20:40:47 Bill Sargent–>lg then we’ll find one or take turns not shooting or whatever if we really want to do this
9/21/05 20:40:51 Pete Wass–>What would you have me do Jim ?,
9/21/05 20:40:59 David j. halblom sr.–>To all, how many competitors do you know who have a current rule book??????
9/21/05 20:41:03 Jim Borden–>get started on your rewrites,
9/21/05 20:41:13 Leon Garfield–>IF I can’t shoot I am done, I am in it to shoot
9/21/05 20:41:23 David j. halblom sr.–>And submit them for 25 added signatures,
9/21/05 20:41:29 Pete Wass–>That will come in due time Jim.,
9/21/05 20:41:30 David j. halblom sr.–>signatures,
9/21/05 20:41:33 bob beyer–>I would just as soon volunteer for something, but I live 100 miles from the nearest range, and also the nearest fellow shooter.
9/21/05 20:41:50 Stephen Perry–>I do David,
9/21/05 20:41:53 Jim Borden–>Pete–you are in for an education on ambiguity……,
9/21/05 20:42:05 Pete Wass–>The internet will be of enormous help here.,
9/21/05 20:42:10 Dwayne Garfield–>Well I’ve been an Inspector for 30 plus years and I can be unbiased had a lot of experience, I can insp. your guns. no allows.
9/21/05 20:42:31 Jim Borden–>Dwayne–that is good,
9/21/05 20:42:48 Dwayne Garfield–>I have ?,
9/21/05 20:43:05 Leon Garfield–>Jim if someone shows up with a gun that don’t come into spec can they still compete but not get any recognition by IBS,
9/21/05 20:43:06 Pete Wass–>I hope there will be interest all over the country in having a good solid base to work from,
9/21/05 20:43:07 Bill Sargent–>dg we don’t have to inspect guns in any way. It’s up to us what to do.
9/21/05 20:43:17 Jim Borden–>Leon–yes
9/21/05 20:43:17 *** Grosbier–>yes
9/21/05 20:43:34 Dwayne Garfield–>You allow so many ozs over weight, but no allowance on width why
9/21/05 20:43:34 Leon Garfield–>so he can shoot for the daily plaque but no points
9/21/05 20:43:40 Bill Sargent–>k I mean up to the refs at the match what to do
9/21/05 20:43:44 Jim Borden–>Bill–all guns must be inspected—-it is ref decision what to inspect
9/21/05 20:43:56 *** Grosbier–>there is an allowance for scale error
9/21/05 20:44:00 Stephen Perry–>1 oz dwayne
9/21/05 20:44:00 Leon Garfield–>Right I think bill is confused about that
9/21/05 20:44:06 *** Grosbier–>not for rifle weight
9/21/05 20:44:19 Jim Borden–>he can not get plaque either–no awards-no money–no points–shoot fo rfun only
9/21/05 20:44:26 Pete Wass–>One must first know what to inspect however
9/21/05 20:44:31 Leon Garfield–>oik thanks Jim
9/21/05 20:44:32 Stephen Perry–>didn’t we hash this out before ***
9/21/05 20:44:44 Dwayne Garfield–>no allowance for mic error
9/21/05 20:45:04 Jim Borden–>Dwayne–that is correct
9/21/05 20:45:29 Dwayne Garfield–>I make my living with a mic and verier
9/21/05 20:45:37 Pete Wass–>Has anyone ever seen a barrel taper checked ?
9/21/05 20:45:37 Dwayne Garfield–>vernier
9/21/05 20:45:37 Jim Borden–>Dwayne–me too
9/21/05 20:45:38 Leon Garfield–>so 3.0000 is it on stock width
9/21/05 20:46:01 Jim Borden–>Leon–no 3 inches is stock width which has been taken to be 3.0000
9/21/05 20:46:04 *** Grosbier–>I have
9/21/05 20:46:25 *** Grosbier–>seen barrel taper checked
9/21/05 20:46:30 Leon Garfield’,”‘Right Jim That is 3″” no MORE”,
9/21/05 20:46:35 Dwayne Garfield–>then I say no tol. on weight
9/21/05 20:46:48 Pete Wass–>I never have or ever seen a stock checked
9/21/05 20:47:07 Jim Borden–>Dwayne–then write a proposed rule and get the signatures–not sure what this vendetta on weight is all about
9/21/05 20:47:19 David j. halblom sr.–>Unless you are going to get the scales certified prior to EACH match, the scale must have an allowance
9/21/05 20:47:32 Jim Borden–>I have seen lots of stocks checked–even saw some fancy paint jobs filed to make under 3 inches
9/21/05 20:47:33 Dwayne Garfield–>To much BS to go through
9/21/05 20:48:00 Jim Borden–>Dwayne–if it is too much BS–then I guess it will have to stay the way it is
9/21/05 20:48:07 David j. halblom sr.–>night guys. MAX
9/21/05 20:48:21 Leon Garfield–>mine weighs 10lbs 14ozs and stock is 2.750 so I am good to go anyway
9/21/05 20:48:25 *** Grosbier–>compliance with rules is not BS it is what gives a level playing field
9/21/05 20:48:45 Pete Wass–>Thank you ***
9/21/05 20:48:50 Jim Borden–>Leon–looks like you shoot HV right?
9/21/05 20:49:17 Leon Garfield–>IS IBS going to supply clubs with a template for checking the stock to make sure it is the right angle and Yes Jim I do
9/21/05 20:49:25 Jim Borden–>I think Dwayne is saying the change of rule is too much BS or at least that is what I understood him to say
9/21/05 20:49:40 Bill Sargent–>I’m NOT CONFUSED. the GUNS SHALL BE INSPECTED BUT IS UP TO THE REFS WHAT WILL BE INSPECTED. IF SOMETHING THEY INSPECT IS NOT OK THEN THEY PROCEED TO THE RULE BOOK TO DETERMINE WHAT TO DO. Sorry about that my coffee is kicking in. Again my understanding is that if our refs decide not to measure anything that is ok?
9/21/05 20:50:04 Leon Garfield–>NO bill
9/21/05 20:50:05 Jim Borden–>Bill–not really–in other words no
9/21/05 20:50:24 Leon Garfield–>they have to check something period
9/21/05 20:50:34 Jim Borden–>let me paste it here again–read real carefully sentence 2.
9/21/05 20:50:34 Leon Garfield–>they can determine WHAT to check
9/21/05 20:50:41 Jim Borden’,”‘I. Inspection of Equipment”
“1) A scale with official weights shall be set up near the firing line at all Registered Tournaments requiring weight limits on rifles. Competitors may use this equipment prior to and during the matches”,,
“2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line”,,,,
9/21/05 20:51:10 Jim Borden’,”’2) The Referees shall inspect every rifle on the firing line”, preferably as the competitors leave the firing line but at the Referees’ discretion, during the firing of the matches
9/21/05 20:51:14 Bill Sargent–>no kidding but what they do is up to them,
9/21/05 20:51:15 David NMN Apple–>I feel that should be done at all matches,
9/21/05 20:51:33 Leon Garfield–>but they can not decide as you said to check nothing,
9/21/05 20:51:34 Jim Borden–>Bill–that is right and I see nothing wrong with that–do you?,
9/21/05 20:51:49 *** Grosbier–>but according to the rules they should do something as opposed to nothing,
9/21/05 20:51:57 Jim Borden–>***–that is correct,
9/21/05 20:52:24 Bill Sargent–>not at all what I’m saying if they choose to not measure anything that is ok unless you want to define inspect,
9/21/05 20:52:24 Jim Borden–>For first 7 to 8 years I competed–my rifles were weighed at every match I went to it,
9/21/05 20:52:35 Leon Garfield–>Guess I will have to come to penn so I can see how inspections work for I have never seen it,
9/21/05 20:53:00 Jim Borden–>inspect means inspect—–they have to check something—,
9/21/05 20:53:25 Leon Garfield–>WOW,
9/21/05 20:53:29 Jim Borden–>Leon–that does not mean they are not done–where have you shot?,
9/21/05 20:53:30 *** Grosbier–>Not really Leon I think the point is things have become to Lax almost everywhere,
9/21/05 20:53:32 bob beyer–>stick finger in mag of hunter gun,
9/21/05 20:53:49 Leon Garfield–>Maine and of coarse VT
9/21/05 20:53:52 Jim Borden–>bob-yes that is an inspection
9/21/05 20:53:59 Leon Garfield–>which hell we don’t know what we are doing
9/21/05 20:54:02 *** Grosbier–>I as a referee have done that Bob
9/21/05 20:54:13 bob beyer–>absolutely
9/21/05 20:54:25 Jim Borden–>Leon–hopefully some of this dialogue will help that change
9/21/05 20:54:33 *** Grosbier–>you can learn Leon it is not that difficult
9/21/05 20:54:58 Leon Garfield–>I will say that we are going to have a meeting this winter to figure out what we need and how to do it so we will be up to snuff…..
9/21/05 20:55:07 bob beyer–>it doesn’t sound like it is
9/21/05 20:55:11 Jim Borden–>I am more than willing to talk to any club director and help with this topic–I just will not do it for them
9/21/05 20:55:33 Jim Borden–>Leon, Bill-Dwayne–are you coming to winter meeting?
9/21/05 20:55:35 Bill Sargent’,”‘hmm – ok our refs can decide what as long as an “”inspection”" is done”,
9/21/05 20:55:35 Leon Garfield–>And as I told you the other night Jim I think I have it all figured out and know what to do. I just wish every club would do it like I have told you already
9/21/05 20:55:47 Jim Borden–>Bill-you got it
9/21/05 20:55:51 Leon Garfield–>HEY HEY BILL
9/21/05 20:56:07 Leon Garfield–>I have not problem with the rulesssssssssssss
9/21/05 20:56:15 Bill Sargent–>k Jim that makes it easy,
9/21/05 20:56:39 Jim Borden–>and as I said before I would SUGGEST that one of the inspections be a weigh in,
9/21/05 20:56:40 David NMN Apple–>Leon you are right.,
9/21/05 20:56:47 Leon Garfield–>I am a committee chairmen for the united steelworkers trust me we have contracts and have to follow them so I know how it is done,
9/21/05 20:57:28 Jim Borden–>Bill-Leon and Dwayne are you guys coming to winter meeting?,
9/21/05 20:57:36 Dwayne Garfield–>No,
9/21/05 20:57:48 Jim Borden–>Dwayne–why not?,
9/21/05 20:57:56 bob beyer–>where is it this year Jim,
9/21/05 20:58:06 David NMN Apple–>Harrisburg,
9/21/05 20:58:08 Bill Sargent–>our refs can do their thing and we have no argument with what another set of refs at another range may choose to do. I have absolutely no problem with that procedure.,
9/21/05 20:58:14 Jim Borden–>Immense opportunity to learn and interact,
9/21/05 20:58:23 Dwayne Garfield–>To far for old Dad,
9/21/05 20:58:27 Leon Garfield–>I would like to thank you all for an interesting chat, I would like to come to penn Jim but don’t know at this time if I will be able to, I don’t get much time off from work and like to keep it for shooting if I can…..Once again thanks
9/21/05 20:59:02 Jim Borden–>Leon–but part of running matches is learning what it is all about and it will make the shooting go easier,
9/21/05 20:59:23 Leon Garfield–>Reed is the match Director I am just a volunteer,
9/21/05 20:59:26 bob beyer–>I’ll be in fla.,
9/21/05 20:59:31 Leon Garfield–>he makes the call I follow
9/21/05 20:59:32 bob beyer–>long way
9/21/05 21:00:02 Leon Garfield–>I know what you want done Jim as I explained already
9/21/05 21:00:42 Leon Garfield–>Ours shoots have gone great, the only thing that has been missing is the inspection of epuip
9/21/05 21:00:58 bob beyer–>can we buy a current rule book from Joan
9/21/05 21:01:09 Leon Garfield–>and people getting up from there benches after they shoot
9/21/05 21:01:27 *** Grosbier–>you are not alone Leon
9/21/05 21:02:01 Leon Garfield–>other than that I think we are close to what you want done, I may be wrong but all the feedback we have gotten has been good. IF there is something people need to bring it to our attention
9/21/05 21:02:07 Leon Garfield–>I know ***
9/21/05 21:02:13 Jim Borden–>Bob–you can download rulebook from website for most current–or Joan can mail you one
9/21/05 21:02:25 Leon Garfield–>Mike
9/21/05 21:02:32 mike ricklefs–>hi all
9/21/05 21:02:35 bob beyer–>I would like a book\
9/21/05 21:02:42 Leon Garfield–>Once again Jim and All thanks for the info and chat
9/21/05 21:02:54 bob beyer–>what’s her biz. no.
9/21/05 21:03:00 Jim Borden–>Leon–I have only heard good stuff about VT–except the wind next to bench 10–can you fix that ? :)
9/21/05 21:03:28 Leon Garfield–>LOL tell Jim he can do it……..LOl
9/21/05 21:03:39 Jim Borden–>Bob–email a request to joan@bordenrifles.com and she will send you one–make sure you include your current address


Transcript 5

9/26/2005 20:04:26– Jim Borden –> hi all,
9/26/2005 20:04:29– Al Nyhus –> Hi Jim.,
9/26/2005 20:04:43– Bill Sargent –> well if u guys want to go with that theory than just spend the bucks and the hell with science,
9/26/2005 20:04:49– Leon Garfield –> there is not a scale around that is calibrated with exact weight,
9/26/2005 20:04:56– *** Grosbier –> Rod Franzius made it,
9/26/2005 20:05:10– Butch Randall –> evening Jim
9/26/2005 20:05:16– JIM GOODY –> hi
9/26/2005 20:05:52– Leon Garfield –> HI Dan long time no see
9/26/2005 20:05:59– Dan Hackett –> Howdy.
9/26/2005 20:06:11– Bill Sargent –> don’t fool yourself thinking that the accuracy of the weights have anything to do with it compared to the accuracy of the scale
9/26/2005 20:06:36– JIM GOODY –> how much $ ?
9/26/2005 20:07:27– Bill Sargent –> under 100 for a single weight at around 12lbs(1/2 between 10.5 and 13.5) to use as a check weight
9/26/2005 20:07:36– *** Grosbier –> Problem is Bill we are only concerned with 10, 10.5 and 13.5 pounds
9/26/2005 20:07:58– Bill Sargent –> dg check weight
9/26/2005 20:08:19– Al Nyhus –> In my travels, my rifles always weigh the same when weighed on digital scales at what ever range I’m at. When my stuff is weighed on balance beam scales, there is considerable amount of variance at different ranges.
9/26/2005 20:08:59– Jim Borden –> the 10, 10.5 and 13.5 # weights are only actually required when a balance beam is used.
9/26/2005 20:09:03– Bill Sargent –> their pro i.e. major scale comp engineer says anything else is not nec with today’s technology
9/26/2005 20:09:16– Al Nyhus –> No ore than .25 oz variance on digitals…up to 4 oz. variance from beam scales.
9/26/2005 20:09:31– Jim Borden –> a check weight will work to set platform or digital scales
9/26/2005 20:09:45– Leon Garfield –> Its a good thing you guys don’t see how this country is calibrated
9/26/2005 20:09:52– *** Grosbier –> ok
9/26/2005 20:10:19– Leon Garfield –> what’s the topic tonight JIM
9/26/2005 20:10:29– JIM GOODY –> the weather
9/26/2005 20:10:36– Bill Sargent –> exactly al their pro laughed about thought that balance was more accurate than dig
9/26/2005 20:10:37– Dan Hackett’,”"”–>”"”,”‘I’ve seen clubs use some pretty weird “”check weights.”" There’s one in this area that uses a bag of sand….”,
9/26/2005 20:10:52– Jim Borden –> score section—Section VII
9/26/2005 20:11:29– Jim Borden –> are we all ready to enter Section Vii?
9/26/2005 20:11:35– Leon Garfield –> Yes
9/26/2005 20:11:37– Al Nyhus –> We’re ready, Jim.
9/26/2005 20:11:44– Ron Baldner –> yes
9/26/2005 20:12:12– Bill Sargent –> well any way I can get certified single weight at around 12 lbs that is what a major international scale comp says to do for under 100
9/26/2005 20:12:29– Bill Sargent –> sorry jim
9/26/2005 20:12:40– Jim Borden –> Bill–I agree with you if you are using digital or platform scale
9/26/2005 20:12:49– Bill Sargent –> tx
9/26/2005 20:13:47– Jim Borden –> using the rulebook as a guide–anyone got any ?’s about the score shooting purpose section?
9/26/2005 20:13:59– Bill Sargent –> not me just going by what pro tells me I don’t know scale from sail
9/26/2005 20:14:51– Jim Borden –> Ok–no ?’s there–any questions about classifications?
9/26/2005 20:14:58– Dan Hackett –> Am I the only one who has noticed the HBR rules do not mention a magazine cutout in the receiver or say the rifle must have a magazine?
9/26/2005 20:15:20– *** Grosbier –> wrong rules Dan
9/26/2005 20:15:25– Jim Borden –> no Dan–in fact that was discussed the other night in a casual chat
9/26/2005 20:15:58– Dan Hackett –> Better take another look at the rule book that’s available for download, ***.
9/26/2005 20:16:05– Ron Baldner –> What is the magazine rule?
9/26/2005 20:16:30– Jim Borden’,”"”–>”"”,”’8) A magazine shall be capable of holding two or more loaded rounds of ammunition.”,,
9/26/2005 20:16:44– *** Grosbier –> Page 18 of the download version
9/26/2005 20:16:46– Ron Baldner –> Any ammo?
9/26/2005 20:16:49– Jim Borden –> That is an area that definitely needs to be rewritten
9/26/2005 20:17:05– Dan Hackett –> That defines what the magazine must do, Jim. There’s nothing that says the rifle must have one, and there’s no mention of a magazine cutout.
9/26/2005 20:17:08– Jim Borden –> Ron–the rule as written does not specify
9/26/2005 20:17:27– Jim Borden –> Dan–I guess I agree with you–I said nothing different
9/26/2005 20:17:40– *** Grosbier –> Interesting point
9/26/2005 20:17:42– Dan Hackett –> Right. I’m just clarifying what I thought it said.
9/26/2005 20:17:49– Ron Baldner –> As long as I cut slots for .22 cal shorts, that is legal?
9/26/2005 20:18:00– Al Nyhus –> There is nothing that specifies the action being a repeater.
9/26/2005 20:18:04– Jim Borden –> I also said it needs to be rewritten,
9/26/2005 20:18:06– Dan Hackett –> Right, Al.
9/26/2005 20:18:30– Ron Baldner –> I don’t think so.,
9/26/2005 20:18:43– Dan Hackett –> This is one area where the NBRSA book is clearer — that’s unusual, to say the least. :-)
9/26/2005 20:18:54– Jim Borden –> Al–that is correct–major problem with the rewrite that was done when the paragraph was changed that said the magazine had to hold rounds and feed them,
9/26/2005 20:20:53– Jim Borden –> This is a rather touchy area for me–I know what the original rules said–I was there when the rule was changed and know the intent–yet the wording sure does not convey what was intended—I have already passed this one along as a recommendation for rewrite,
9/26/2005 20:20:56– Al Nyhus –> I had noticed that omission for some time now…everyone knows the spirit of the rule, so I never made mention of it…or showed up with a single shot Kodiak.//26
9/26/2005 20:21:02– Dan Hackett –> Jim, is there any chance of the IBS magazine rule being brought into line with NBRSA? (I.e., magazine cutout required, but no requirement for functional magazine?)
9/26/2005 20:21:10– david j. halblom sr. –> full house!,
9/26/2005 20:21:40– Jim Borden –> Dan–that is up to the membership when they vote on the changed wording,
9/26/2005 20:22:11– Joe Woosman –> What’s the point of a cutout if it doesn’t need to function?,
9/26/2005 20:22:26– Dan Hackett –> The idea is to make the action more flexible, Joe.
9/26/2005 20:22:32– Jim Borden –> In my personal opinion it would need to go beyond what the NBRSA rule says—-the hunter rifles are no where near what was originally intended,
9/26/2005 20:22:40– *** Grosbier –> stiffness more similar to a hunting rifle,
9/26/2005 20:22:42– david j. halblom sr. –> as well as the stock more flexible,
9/26/2005 20:22:48– Al Nyhus –> Very true, Jim.
9/26/2005 20:23:08– Jim Borden –> I would like to see it go back to hold and feed loaded rounds of the cartridge that is being fired,
9/26/2005 20:23:22– David NMN Apple –> correct. original intent,
9/26/2005 20:23:27– Joe Woosman –> Why was it changed Jim?,
9/26/2005 20:23:32– david j. halblom sr. –> I would point out that none of the Varmint classes are what they started out as either,
9/26/2005 20:23:35– Jim Borden –> otherwise–just make the rifle a 10 pound version of an LV,
9/26/2005 20:23:55– *** Grosbier –> cause rem 700 won’t usually feed a ppc,
9/26/2005 20:24:12– Jim Borden –> It was changed because they wanted to away with the shall feed protion–that is when the paragraph got butchered,
9/26/2005 20:24:15– David NMN Apple –> harren has them,
9/26/2005 20:24:19– Dan Hackett –> Before the new rules were passed in NBRSA, everyone was cheating on the magazine rule, and counting on the fact that magazines were never checked. The rules change legitimized common practice, then IBS more or less went along with what NBRSA was doing.
9/26/2005 20:25:35– Dan Hackett –> There’s been very little change in the varmint class rules for at least 30-35 years,,,
9/26/2005 20:25:59– David NMN Apple –> original intent,
9/26/2005 20:26:04– david j. halblom sr. –> But the rifles are NOT anything like real world,
9/26/2005 20:26:25– Al Nyhus –> The main thing you need is the ability for a HBR rifle to easily conform to the rules of both the IBS and the NBRSA, IMO.
9/26/2005 20:26:42– David NMN Apple –> original intent was a hunting rifle platform. a full race BAT is not,
9/26/2005 20:26:59– david j. halblom sr. –> Since the IBS is reciprocal, NBRSA works there
9/26/2005 20:27:27– Jim Borden –> has anyone also noticed that the hunter stocks do not have a butt section taper requirement/
9/26/2005 20:27:36– Al Nyhus –> Yes…..
9/26/2005 20:27:43– Dan Hackett –> NO, Dave A. From the very beginning, custom rifles were expected. HBR guns still used factory actions until 1999.
9/26/2005 20:27:53– david j. halblom sr.’,”"”–>”"”,”‘HBR has not been a “”hunting”" rifle for as long as Varmint has not “, at least
9/26/2005 20:27:56– *** Grosbier –> I believe an NBRSA rifle must still meet IBS rules to be allowed is that not true Jim
9/26/2005 20:27:57– Jim Borden –> David–that is not correct–we do not accept whatever NBRSA accepts—-
9/26/2005 20:28:24– Jim Borden –> ***–you stated it better
9/26/2005 20:28:25– *** Grosbier –> we accept their card
9/26/2005 20:28:36– Dan Hackett –> Yes, Jim. Other than the forearm width requirement, HBR stock requirements are more or less nonexistent.
9/26/2005 20:28:40– david j. halblom sr. –> In other words, my non-functional magazine is not legal?
9/26/2005 20:28:58– Dan Hackett –> It’s illegal if you enter the match with an IBS card, Dave.
9/26/2005 20:29:06– Pat Cameron –> Hello all 20 people
9/26/2005 20:29:10– david j. halblom sr. –> Not the question Dan
9/26/2005 20:29:21– *** Grosbier –> It doesn’t have to function but must hold 2 rounds
9/26/2005 20:29:24– Jim Borden –> david–the IBS does not require a functional magazine–it just must hold two or more rounds of ammo
9/26/2005 20:29:25– Francis Becigneul –> Yes David. as written you are legal,
9/26/2005 20:29:26– Al Nyhus –> Pat.,
9/26/2005 20:29:53– david j. halblom sr. –> Also not the question Francis,
9/26/2005 20:29:55– Jim Borden –> dan–if a rifle is illegal in IBS it does not matter what card you use to enter the match,
9/26/2005 20:30:03– david j. halblom sr.’,”"”–>”"”,”‘Define “”hold”"”,,,
9/26/2005 20:30:11– *** Grosbier –> apparently 2 22rf as it stands but that is not the intent,
9/26/2005 20:30:39– Dan Hackett –> Another question is,” what is meant by “”holding two rounds of ammunition.”" Does that mean it must accept rounds loaded through the receiver”, or just that there must be enough space for two rounds to fit?
9/26/2005 20:30:48– Frank in the Laurels –> good evening,
9/26/2005 20:31:25– Jim Borden –> dan–as written it is not clear—-I think we all know the intent–but it is not written that way,
9/26/2005 20:31:40– Al Nyhus –> Jim, it seems a simple rewording is in order to clarify the rules on magazine and action is all that’s needed.
9/26/2005 20:31:51– *** Grosbier –> Frank we are discussing IBS rules again,
9/26/2005 20:32:00– david j. halblom sr. –> Jim, I must ask that intent
9/26/2005 20:32:10– Dan Hackett –> Jim, as I understand it, it has been the practice to accept NBRSA-legal rifles to be used by NBRSA members at IBS matches, even if the rifle doesn’t meet IBS rules.
9/26/2005 20:32:20– Jim Borden –> correct AL–I am hoping that the score committee coordinates getting the reword complete to be submitted for 2007 agenda,
9/26/2005 20:32:35– Jim Borden –> Dan–that was only true for a couple of years,
9/26/2005 20:32:50– Jim Borden –> That turned into a nightmare,
9/26/2005 20:33:23– *** Grosbier –> and led to custom actions in IBS
9/26/2005 20:33:44– Al Nyhus –> If you want to open a can of worms…compare the IBS and NBRSA HBR barrel profiles.8-o EEEKKK![-D
9/26/2005 20:33:47– david j. halblom sr. –> And there is a problem w/ custom actions?
9/26/2005 20:34:01– Jim Borden –> I could never understand why it was okay for NBRSA shooter to have a custom action and an IBS shooter could not—as *** said that led to approving custom actions for IBS and the membership thing went by the wayside
9/26/2005 20:34:45– david j. halblom sr. –> Al, compare stock dimensions. Just as bad
9/26/2005 20:34:46– *** Grosbier –> IBS was actually allowing NBRSA members to use equipment IBS members were not allowed to use
9/26/2005 20:35:20– Jim Borden –> david–the conservative ones amongst us finally said the heck with it and the custom action ruling was made
9/26/2005 20:35:33– *** Grosbier –> thus causing IBS members to Join NBRSA
9/26/2005 20:35:47– david j. halblom sr. –> Yes, and all for the better as well.
9/26/2005 20:35:47– mike ricklefs –> a mag follower blocked,
9/26/2005 20:36:06– david j. halblom sr. –> Hey J.G.
9/26/2005 20:36:43– Al Nyhus –> Those of us competing in both the NBRSA and IBS tournaments must build hybrid HBR rifles….NBRSA barrel profiles and IBS magazines.
9/26/2005 20:36:46– Leon Garfield –> Jim question on bench rotation
9/26/2005 20:36:51– Jim Borden –> Mike–I have no further comments on the magazine rule–it is poorly written and that is all there is to it. If folks want to play with it and go where the intent was not–I guess it is open game until the rewrite is done
9/26/2005 20:37:13– Jim Borden –> Leon–what is ?
9/26/2005 20:37:42– Leon Garfield –> Does a club have to have a bench rotation at any shoots other than Nationals,,
9/26/2005 20:37:53– Jim Borden –> yes—-brb,,
9/26/2005 20:38:20– Jim Borden’,”"”–>”"”,”’3) Rotation of a prespecified number of benches after each individual match shall be used at IBS Championship Tournaments. Some form of bench rotation will be used at Grand Aggregate Tournaments. The type of rotation will be at the discretion of the Host Club. Stationary backers will be used at all Grand Aggregate Tournaments.”,,,,
9/26/2005 20:38:34– Leon Garfield –> Ok so grand agg only,,
9/26/2005 20:38:41– *** Grosbier –> right,,
9/26/2005 20:38:42– Jim Borden –> yes,,
9/26/2005 20:38:47– Leon Garfield –> thank you,,
9/26/2005 20:39:03– david j. halblom sr. –> Is that why the clubs in the east do not shoot aggs?,,
9/26/2005 20:39:04– Jim Borden –> I am one of the few that favors bench rotation at all matches,,
9/26/2005 20:39:16– *** Grosbier –> and full rotation can be used at any match but is only required at Nationals,,
9/26/2005 20:39:19– Jim Borden –> clubs in east do shoot aggs,,
9/26/2005 20:39:25– david j. halblom sr. –> Add me to that list jIM,,
9/26/2005 20:39:28– Jim Borden –> they also shoot grand aggs,,
9/26/2005 20:39:30– Leon Garfield –> I have not trouble with it just wanted to know for sure when it was NEEDED,,
9/26/2005 20:39:41– David NMN Apple –> Jim, section D 1 2 requires a ten minute match. some clubs use a 7 minute match. if a record is shot in a 7 minute match is it legal?,
9/26/2005 20:39:45– Dan Hackett –> So, Jim, there must be at least rotation between yardages, even at a one-day, two-yardage shoot?
9/26/2005 20:39:50– david j. halblom sr. –> Sorry, Grand Aggs
9/26/2005 20:39:58– Jim Borden –> if you have a range that has widely varying conditions across it–I think it wise to rotate
9/26/2005 20:40:16– Dan Hackett –> Jim, I agree with that.
9/26/2005 20:40:19– Leon Garfield –> we have used yardage rotation at our grand aggs
9/26/2005 20:40:26– Jim Borden –> *** probably has a better feel that I–but there were a number of weekend grand agg matches this year
9/26/2005 20:40:27– *** Grosbier –> you mean Full rotation?
9/26/2005 20:40:56– Jim Borden –> leon–I would prefer match rotation if you have widely varying conditions
9/26/2005 20:41:05– Jim Borden –> I mean full rotation
9/26/2005 20:41:10– *** Grosbier –> Full rotation is definitely fairer but a lot of work
9/26/2005 20:41:10– david j. halblom sr. –> Iowa ALWAYS shoots grand aggs. Are you saying rotation is MANDATORY then?
9/26/2005 20:41:21– *** Grosbier –> sure
9/26/2005 20:41:24– Jim Borden –> David–that is what the rule says
9/26/2005 20:41:32– Jim Borden –> it may be agg rotation
9/26/2005 20:41:42– david j. halblom sr. –> Just asking clarification
9/26/2005 20:41:49– Jim Borden –> stationarys are also required
9/26/2005 20:42:12– Jim Borden –> it may also be full rotation–club choice
9/26/2005 20:42:14– Leon Garfield –> Right done that,
9/26/2005 20:42:17– *** Grosbier –> stationary backers are required also which I doubt a lot of clubs are using,
9/26/2005 20:42:19– david j. halblom sr.’,”"”–>”"”,”‘I happen to agree. But that is not “”customary”" practice”,,,
9/26/2005 20:42:27– *** Grosbier –> with Grand Agg,
9/26/2005 20:42:51– Dan Hackett –> Stationaries are a good idea — they help track down crossfires.,
9/26/2005 20:42:52– Jim Borden –> then customary practice better get in line–who does the info need to be passed along to?,
9/26/2005 20:43:16– JIM GOODY –> THE MATCH DIRECTORS,
9/26/2005 20:43:23– *** Grosbier –> yup,
9/26/2005 20:43:23– david j. halblom sr. –> what would be a record committee ruling if a record is shot and only yardage rotation and no stationary backer?,
9/26/2005 20:43:49– Jim Borden –> wow—-it could be null and void,
9/26/2005 20:43:52– *** Grosbier –> if it came up it would seem void to me,
9/26/2005 20:43:57– Dan Hackett –> Technically, it would not be a legal record, Dave.
9/26/2005 20:44:13– Leon Garfield –> why?,
9/26/2005 20:44:28– david j. halblom sr. –> Tell that to Roy, Mike, Dale, Dave
9/26/2005 20:44:31– Jim Borden –> Leon–because rules for procedure were not followed,
9/26/2005 20:44:39– Dan Hackett –> Do the rules require sending backers along with a potential record set of targets, as they do in group competition?
9/26/2005 20:44:41– Leon Garfield –> cause not backer
9/26/2005 20:45:05– Leon Garfield –> yardage rotation is legal
9/26/2005 20:45:08– Jim Borden –> stationary probably would not void reford
9/26/2005 20:45:09– *** Grosbier –> getting back to David apples question I think a record shot at 7 min matches would be ok as it is more restrictive but if 12 min matches are used it would never count for anything
9/26/2005 20:45:18– Jim Borden –> record
9/26/2005 20:45:35– Jim Borden –> ***–that is correct
9/26/2005 20:45:43– David NMN Apple –> thank you
9/26/2005 20:46:15– Leon Garfield –> Jim are you saying that a record shot with yardage rotation is not OK
9/26/2005 20:46:19– david j. halblom sr. –> I have to agree on the time issue. W e have developed the habit of polling the shooters before we start. Even though we advertise 7 minutes
9/26/2005 20:46:34– Jim Borden –> however if one iBS member shows up at a match using 7 minutes and he/she complains–then the club must use the 10 minute matches
9/26/2005 20:46:50– david j. halblom sr. –> As we have complied.
9/26/2005 20:46:56– *** Grosbier –> that was my understanding
9/26/2005 20:47:01– Jim Borden –> leon–I did not say that
9/26/2005 20:47:18– Leon Garfield –> OK why would it be null and void then
9/26/2005 20:47:22– Jim Borden –> not sure how you got that out of what was said
9/26/2005 20:47:39– Jim Borden –> if rotation is not used at all was the question
9/26/2005 20:47:54– *** Grosbier –> only grand aggregate matches require some form of rotation,
9/26/2005 20:48:03– Dan Hackett –> We held 10-minute matches when we first started at Mason City, but everyone was always done shooting in less than 7 minutes, and the shooters voted to go with the shorter period. But as Jim says, even one shooter can veto that.
9/26/2005 20:48:19– david j. halblom sr. –> correct Dan,
9/26/2005 20:48:32– *** Grosbier –> the 100yd record or 200 yd can be broken at a one day match with no rotation,
9/26/2005 20:48:44– Jim Borden –> correct –***,
9/26/2005 20:48:54– david j. halblom sr. –> Define a Grand Agg.,
9/26/2005 20:49:20– Dan Hackett –> Grand agg is the total of two scores fired at two different yardages.,
9/26/2005 20:49:21– Leon Garfield –> Question by David was only YARDAGE rotation and NO stationary backers you said could be null and void,
9/26/2005 20:49:21– *** Grosbier –> if the 100 was broken at a 2 day match I am not sure it would stand if rotation was not used,
9/26/2005 20:49:32– Jim Borden –> grand aggs are listed in the course of fire section of the rulebook–brb,
9/26/2005 20:49:59– Jim Borden’,”"”–>”"”,”‘b. SCORE REGISTERED GRAND AGGREGATES”,,,
9/26/2005 20:50:07– david j. halblom sr. –> My book is buried in the van. 1-2 hrs to get it,
9/26/2005 20:50:09– *** Grosbier –> 100-200, 200-300, etc
9/26/2005 20:50:16– Jim Borden –> did not come out well in text version,
9/26/2005 20:50:24– *** Grosbier –> even 100-200-300,
9/26/2005 20:50:27– Jim Borden –> David–download it from IBS site,
9/26/2005 20:50:40– david j. halblom sr. –> I have it.
9/26/2005 20:50:42– *** Grosbier –> but 100-300 is not a recognized aggregate
9/26/2005 20:50:49– Leon Garfield –> Ok so as long as some kind of rotation is used and backers it is good on grand agg shoots
9/26/2005 20:51:07– *** Grosbier –> and all other rules followed
9/26/2005 20:51:08– Jim Borden –> leon–correct–I must have misunderstood the ?
9/26/2005 20:51:18– Dan Hackett –> Even if the two yardages are shot on two different days, Leon.
9/26/2005 20:51:22– Leon Garfield –> that’s ok
9/26/2005 20:51:29– Leon Garfield –> just wanted to be correct thanks
9/26/2005 20:51:35– Jim Borden –> ok
9/26/2005 20:51:42– *** Grosbier –> it has been done on separate weekends
9/26/2005 20:51:58– *** Grosbier –> but certain conditions must be followed
9/26/2005 20:52:04– Jim Borden –> ***–that is correct and then it also follows the rotation rule
9/26/2005 20:52:11– *** Grosbier –> it must be advertised
9/26/2005 20:52:24– *** Grosbier –> according to score comm.
9/26/2005 20:52:54– david j. halblom sr.’,”"”–>”"”,”‘I am more than a bit skeptical of a “”grand ag”" over 2 or 3 weekends”,
9/26/2005 20:53:12– JIM GOODY –> why?
9/26/2005 20:53:12– Jim Borden –> why David–it works ok–not optimal–but works
9/26/2005 20:53:15– david j. halblom sr. –> BRB Max
9/26/2005 20:53:29– Dan Hackett –> As long as that is specified in the club’s contract with IBS, it’s perfectly OK, Dave.
9/26/2005 20:53:29– *** Grosbier –> check out Maine Firecracker and Md state 100-200 coupled with Frederick county challenge(300yd)
9/26/2005 20:53:51– Jim Borden –> good examples ***
9/26/2005 20:54:11– Dan Hackett –> Right, ***. Although not common, a grand agg can even be fired at two different facilities.
9/26/2005 20:54:22– *** Grosbier –> true
9/26/2005 20:54:27– Al Nyhus –> Should be no problem as long as all competitors know in advance what the deal is.
9/26/2005 20:54:34– JIM GOODY –> we know what happens when you don’t advertise the three yardage deal correct ***
9/26/2005 20:54:43– Dan Hackett –> Hence the requirement for advertising, Al.
9/26/2005 20:54:48– Jim Borden –> that is the key point Al
9/26/2005 20:54:50– *** Grosbier –> that’s why score comm requires it be advertised I guess
9/26/2005 20:54:52– Al Nyhus –> Yep.
9/26/2005 20:55:43– Dan Hackett –> We’ve had group 2-gun aggs held over two different match weekends. Worked very well, in fact.
9/26/2005 20:56:10– Jim Borden –> any other ?’s on course of fire or rules for procedure in score section?
9/26/2005 20:56:40– Leon Garfield –> scoring #2 I don’t see where it says the refs have the final say. It says if the scorer cant make a decision then he will get the refs
9/26/2005 20:56:49– Dan Hackett –> There is the issue you and I have been discussing via e-mail, Jim, if you want to bring that up.
9/26/2005 20:57:14– David NMN Apple –> I have a question,
9/26/2005 20:57:23– Bill Sargent –> pit duty?,
9/26/2005 20:57:23– Jim Borden –> If Scorer cannot arrive at a decision then it is to be made by the Referees before the plug is removed.,
9/26/2005 20:57:42– Jim Borden –> Leon–the above is pretty clear to me—-,
9/26/2005 20:57:54– Leon Garfield –> right so if the scorer makes a decision then it sounds like it is final,
9/26/2005 20:57:59– David NMN Apple –> if potential record is possible, rules say targets must be signed by refs AND range officer. if no range officer signing is it legal?
9/26/2005 20:58:03– Jim Borden –> it says decision is to be made by refs,
9/26/2005 20:58:22– Leon Garfield –> If he cannot arrive at a decision,
9/26/2005 20:58:22– Jim Borden –> scorer decision can be protested by a shooter,
9/26/2005 20:58:27– David NMN Apple –> 30 minute protest period,
9/26/2005 20:58:34– Leon Garfield –> Ok,
9/26/2005 20:59:00– Jim Borden –> referee decision can also be protested by a shooter–just takes longer to get answer,
9/26/2005 20:59:00– Dan Hackett –> Leon, I’ve been a referee when a scorer’s decision was changed, and I have made successful protests, too. The scorer’s decision CAN be changed.
9/26/2005 20:59:17– Leon Garfield –> Just looking for clarification that’s all, I have seen it do Dan
9/26/2005 20:59:44– Leon Garfield –> remember some of us are NEWbies,
9/26/2005 20:59:56– JIM GOODY –> I have a question on crossfires
9/26/2005 21:00:00– Dan Hackett –> Not forgetting that, Leon. :-)
9/26/2005 21:00:03– Jim Borden –> Leon–no problem–
9/26/2005 21:00:19– David NMN Apple –> jim, the ref/ range officer question please
9/26/2005 21:00:31– Jim Borden –> what ? dave
9/26/2005 21:01:22– David NMN Apple –> the rules say refs must sign POTENTIAL records AND the range officer. if the targets are in the hands of a score comm member can the range officer sign them at a later date?
9/26/2005 21:01:31– David NMN Apple –> later
9/26/2005 21:01:50– David NMN Apple –> for a potential multiple yardage agg
9/26/2005 21:01:52– Jim Borden –> the RO and the refs should sign before they are submitted to score committee
9/26/2005 21:02:37– Jim Borden –> when score committee members have been present at range I have seen that practice reversed–not saying that is ok–it is not
9/26/2005 21:02:38– Dan Hackett –> Jim, is it legal/proper for a referee to sign his own targets if they are a potential record?
9/26/2005 21:02:47– David NMN Apple –> this weekend the targets were signed by the refs but not the range officer. the last match is in 2 weeks. can the range officer still sign them before the match?
9/26/2005 21:02:57– Jim Borden –> no
9/26/2005 21:03:12– David NMN Apple –> DRAT
9/26/2005 21:03:19– Jim Borden –> that is unless it is the 100/200 and 300 thing over three weekends
9/26/2005 21:03:35– David NMN Apple –> that is what I am referring to jim
9/26/2005 21:03:46– Jim Borden –> the grand is not finished yet
9/26/2005 21:04:13– Jim Borden –> would have been good practice to get the signatures at the end of the 200
9/26/2005 21:04:31– David NMN Apple –> refs did sign it but the rules say ro too
9/26/2005 21:04:36– Jim Borden –> Dan–legal–but not good practice for individual to sign as referee his own targets
9/26/2005 21:04:45– david j. halblom sr. –> But if the agg is not finished, why cannot the targets be signed?
9/26/2005 21:05:12– Jim Borden –> they can be signed–Dave–in fact it is good practice—-
9/26/2005 21:05:31– *** Grosbier –> that’s why Gary took them
9/26/2005 21:05:44– Jim Borden –> just an area that needs much better clarification for multi weekend aggs
9/26/2005 21:05:57– Jim Borden –> Gary had foresight!!!
9/26/2005 21:06:02– David NMN Apple –> so we are cool for a POTENTIAL record right jim?
9/26/2005 21:06:08– Jim Borden –> yes Dave
9/26/2005 21:06:14– david j. halblom sr. –> And it is back to my skeptical over 2-3 weekends.
9/26/2005 21:06:17– Jim Borden –> shoot well
9/26/2005 21:06:19– David NMN Apple –> thank you. I will alert curtis
9/26/2005 21:06:23– David NMN Apple –> thanks
9/26/2005 21:06:36– Jim Borden –> why skeptical david?
9/26/2005 21:06:53– David NMN Apple –> the rules say RO. I never knew that
9/26/2005 21:06:56– david j. halblom sr. –> Like running the Indy 500 over 3 days
9/26/2005 21:07:09– David NMN Apple –> play fair
9/26/2005 21:07:17– *** Grosbier –> the indy 500 is one race
9/26/2005 21:07:21– Jim Borden –> still do not understand–hate to say it but you are almost sounding like Pete
9/26/2005 21:07:29– *** Grosbier –> ouch
9/26/2005 21:07:33– David NMN Apple –> easy now:-|
9/26/2005 21:07:35– david j. halblom sr. –> A grand agg is ONE race
9/26/2005 21:07:40– Jim Borden –> help me understand your point
9/26/2005 21:07:52– Leon Garfield –> NO grand agg is shoot in one day
9/26/2005 21:07:56– *** Grosbier –> composed of 3 events (in this case)
9/26/2005 21:08:00– David NMN Apple –> I just want to know we arte doing the right thing
9/26/2005 21:08:13– David NMN Apple –> the right way
9/26/2005 21:08:26– Dan Hackett –> No, Dave. A grand agg is composed of two or more separate events.
9/26/2005 21:08:28– Al Nyhus –> Sure they are, Leon.
9/26/2005 21:08:31– Jim Borden –> david apple–was not questioning you–I was questioning David H
9/26/2005 21:08:35– *** Grosbier –> actually grands are sometimes shot in one day but not required
9/26/2005 21:08:37– david j. halblom sr. –> Not trying to take Pete’s place. And yes grand aggs Are Shot In One Day. E very match weekend in Iowa\
9/26/2005 21:08:49– David NMN Apple –> sorry
9/26/2005 21:08:52– Leon Garfield –> OK most are at least 2 days
9/26/2005 21:08:55– Al Nyhus –> And Wis, and Ks.
9/26/2005 21:09:08– david j. halblom sr. –> Thank you Al
9/26/2005 21:09:17– Dan Hackett –> Leon, not so. Except at really big tournaments, most grand aggs are shot in one day.
9/26/2005 21:09:27– *** Grosbier –> actually many of the newer score clubs shoot grands in one day hence the 7 min thing
9/26/2005 21:09:29– Jim Borden –> 1 day –two days or over two weekends–I do not see much difference-you still have to shoot the targets
9/26/2005 21:09:36– david j. halblom sr.’,”"”–>”"”,”‘only the “”heritage”" clubs shoot the 1 yardage 1 day format”,,
9/26/2005 21:09:37– Al Nyhus –> Regional practice does not make it the rules, Leon.
9/26/2005 21:09:48– Leon Garfield –> I’m with you JIM
9/26/2005 21:10:06– *** Grosbier’,”"”–>”"”,”‘there’s a new term “”Heritage Club”"”,,
9/26/2005 21:10:14– Leon Garfield –> Nor does your way
9/26/2005 21:10:23– david j. halblom sr. –> like heritage airlines
9/26/2005 21:10:34– *** Grosbier –> actually Vermont is new this year David
9/26/2005 21:10:39– Rod Franzius –> East of the PA border,
9/26/2005 21:10:42– Al Nyhus –> But again…as long as the shooters know the format (whatever it is) it’s a non issue.,
9/26/2005 21:10:46– Jim Borden –> guys–lets not et into my way is the better way stuff—-,
9/26/2005 21:10:52– david j. halblom sr. –> What about complete rebuild of a rifle over the ensuing week?,
9/26/2005 21:11:12– Al Nyhus –> Agreed, Leon…works both ways.//26
9/26/2005 21:11:13– *** Grosbier –> does not have to be same rifle,
9/26/2005 21:11:15– Jim Borden –> David–I have seen rifles rebuilt over a nationals week in group shooting,
9/26/2005 21:11:24– Leon Garfield –> IM good with both ways,
9/26/2005 21:11:32– *** Grosbier –> just same shooter and class,
9/26/2005 21:11:34– Dan Hackett –> What about it, Dave? Someone can change barrels, or even use a different rifle from one agg to the next, even on the same day.
9/26/2005 21:11:38– David NMN Apple –> correct,
9/26/2005 21:11:48– Al Nyhus –> That’s one nice thing about the IBS…it allows for regional differences to accommodate the shooters. Great idea, IMO.
9/26/2005 21:11:48– Jim Borden –> good point Dan,
9/26/2005 21:12:15– david j. halblom sr. –> OK. I’m not trying to say it is better. I’m trying to see the reasoning. Trying to get the cause-effect discussed,
9/26/2005 21:12:33– david j. halblom sr. –> Al, right on!!!!
9/26/2005 21:12:39– Jim Borden’,”"”–>”"”,”‘I have only gone to a few group shoots that have grand aggs each day and most of us “”dump”" on the club doing it such as Painted Post”,,,
9/26/2005 21:12:47– Leon Garfield –> We are slow David we need more than one day….LOL
9/26/2005 21:12:54– Rod Franzius –> You can change rifles in one agg
9/26/2005 21:13:06– david j. halblom sr. –> Ronnie Berg likes SLOW
9/26/2005 21:13:27– *** Grosbier –> this might be a reason to not allow 2 rifles in same agg ,
9/26/2005 21:13:28– Dan Hackett –> It’s not complicated. Everyone knows what the format is, and you give your approval when you sign up for the agg.
9/26/2005 21:13:29– Al Nyhus –> Leon…hope you didn’t take my response as being a smart aleck…not meant that way.
9/26/2005 21:13:56– Leon Garfield –> NO was using a little humor were cool
9/26/2005 21:13:58– Jim Borden –> I like fast paced shoots–I love shooting score–but the paccccceeee kills me
9/26/2005 21:14:02– Al Nyhus –> //32
9/26/2005 21:14:16– *** Grosbier –> it’s the pace I like
9/26/2005 21:14:25– Jim Borden –> Thurmont runs them fast—
9/26/2005 21:14:40– Al Nyhus –> Jim…you would love shooting out here…100-200 6X agg one day, the VFS 100-200 the next.
9/26/2005 21:14:42– david j. halblom sr. –> Then I will propose a 7 minute match rule. That ought to stir the Sh@@@##$%%
9/26/2005 21:14:46– Leon Garfield –> I have had noting but fast pace running targets and shooting, there is not much time to get bored
9/26/2005 21:14:48– Jim Borden –> Eddie and gang get targets changed and next relay is on the way!!
9/26/2005 21:15:05– Jim Borden –> David–I am all for it
9/26/2005 21:15:14– Dan Hackett –> The 7-minute format does speed things up.
9/26/2005 21:15:18– *** Grosbier –> we had to slow down Sunday we went too fast Saturday
9/26/2005 21:15:31– david j. halblom sr. –> we have run 3 relays, 2 yardage, 2 guns in 1 day and not breathe hard
9/26/2005 21:15:50– Jim Borden –> now that is moving
9/26/2005 21:15:54– *** Grosbier –> 3 relays we were done with awards and people on road at 3:15
9/26/2005 21:15:59– Jim Borden –> that is moving
9/26/2005 21:16:00– Al Nyhus –> If I can’t get ‘er done in 7, I’m hopelessly lost anyway!
9/26/2005 21:16:08– David NMN Apple –> excellent job ***
9/26/2005 21:16:16– david j. halblom sr. –> Go ***!
9/26/2005 21:16:30– Bill Sargent –> dg faster than us?
9/26/2005 21:16:43– Jim Borden –> Dan–did you want to open the bench occupation thing?
9/26/2005 21:16:48– Rod Franzius –> VT is FAST
9/26/2005 21:16:52– *** Grosbier –> I agree Al but the old timers in east will hang you by tour thumbs if you try to force 7 min matches I think
9/26/2005 21:17:08– david j. halblom sr. –> Majority rule?
9/26/2005 21:17:20– Dan Hackett –> I shot a group match last week where we started a two-relay grand agg at 8:30 a.m., and were on the road home at 2:00 p.m. Glad I was preloaded…..
9/26/2005 21:17:35– dwayne garfield –> We can vote to have 10 min.
9/26/2005 21:17:38– Dan Hackett –> Jim, if you want to discuss that, it’s fine with me.
9/26/2005 21:17:51– Al Nyhus –> That’s why we all get a vote, ***. At least those of us that don’t have to fly 1000 miles one way to the meeting.;-)
9/26/2005 21:18:00– Leon Garfield –> we shoot 3 relays done shooting at 2:30 starting at 9am
9/26/2005 21:18:03– Jim Borden –> we had discussed it before here–just wanted to see if you wanted more clarification on it
9/26/2005 21:18:34– Bill Sargent –> yes please Jim
9/26/2005 21:18:47– Dan Hackett –> As I’ve said, Jim, I think the rules are not at all clear on this issue.
9/26/2005 21:19:13– david j. halblom sr. –> Al, drive to DSM and ride out with me. I will be there !
9/26/2005 21:19:16– Jim Borden –> maybe not–but clear the benches here has meant take your rifle off the rest
9/26/2005 21:19:43– David NMN Apple –> clear English
9/26/2005 21:19:48– Dan Hackett –> …and I’ve never seen that when only one person used a bench.
9/26/2005 21:20:00– Jim Borden –> no rifle on rest means–no one is going to occupy that bench in next relay
9/26/2005 21:20:01– Leon Garfield –> Is it ok Jim to set up your rests and stuff between relays when target crew is down range??
9/26/2005 21:20:34– Jim Borden –> I have Dan–for 28 competitive years–have even seen range officer hold target crew from going down range until the rifle was cleared from the rest
9/26/2005 21:20:49– David NMN Apple –> good practice
9/26/2005 21:20:57– Jim Borden –> Leon–clubs discretion and it is common practice to do that
9/26/2005 21:21:07– Leon Garfield –> Ok thanks
9/26/2005 21:21:33– Jim Borden –> However–it does not mean a comp from relay #2 can set his stuff up when relay #1 is setting stuff-relay #2 has NOT been called to the line
9/26/2005 21:21:33– Leon Garfield –> Gun can be sat up to as long as bolt is out??
9/26/2005 21:21:42– Leon Garfield –> Right I agree
9/26/2005 21:21:56– Jim Borden –> leon–yes for the really that is going to shoot but not for future realys
9/26/2005 21:22:05– Leon Garfield –> right thanks
9/26/2005 21:22:32– Dan Hackett –> However, the language of the rules is open to interpretation.
9/26/2005 21:22:43– Jim Borden –> Dan–some clubs have interpreted clear the benches to mean even the rests–we have advised that is not the intent
9/26/2005 21:22:45– Leon Garfield –> one more thing
9/26/2005 21:22:57– Jim Borden –> Dan–not for setting up of a rifle
9/26/2005 21:23:09– Jim Borden –> you can not set it up if you have not been called to the line
9/26/2005 21:23:21– Leon Garfield –> So if I am done shooting my relay all my stuff has to be removed from the bench or just my gun in no one is shooting another relay on my bench
9/26/2005 21:23:52– *** Grosbier –> can you leave your rest if agreeable with other users of that bench?
9/26/2005 21:23:52– Jim Borden –> just your gun–if someone is sharing your rest and no one else will be using the bench on a subsequent relay
9/26/2005 21:24:08– Leon Garfield –> Thanks
9/26/2005 21:24:09– Dan Hackett’,”"”–>”"”,”‘It would be better if the rules specify what is meant by “”clearing”" a bench. They do NOT say that means only the rifle must be removed.”,
9/26/2005 21:24:21– Jim Borden –> ***–Sure –but it aggravates me when I go to the bench and there is stuff on it
9/26/2005 21:24:30– Jim Borden –> OK dan
9/26/2005 21:24:31– *** Grosbier –> agreed
9/26/2005 21:24:49– Francis Becigneul –> I guess it means whatever the R.O. says it means.
9/26/2005 21:24:54– Jim Borden –> It is my bench for the relay I am shooting
9/26/2005 21:25:21– Dan Hackett –> What about a single-relay match, Jim?
9/26/2005 21:25:43– *** Grosbier –> but if there is room and only two shooters I as a leftie frequently get along with a right handed shooter if bench is wide enough
9/26/2005 21:25:58– Jim Borden –> Dan–clear the benches has meant rifle must be removed as minimum–probably should say that in this day and age
9/26/2005 21:26:02– *** Grosbier –> just front rest
9/26/2005 21:26:25– Leon Garfield –> I guess clear the benches means just that CLEAR them
9/26/2005 21:26:38– Jim Borden –> ***–I understand that–but I do not like the stuff there–particularly since I use RR with ejectors
9/26/2005 21:26:43– Leon Garfield –> but if competitors don’t mind what the heck
9/26/2005 21:26:59– Jim Borden –> Correct leon–that is key word for leaving rest
9/26/2005 21:27:10– *** Grosbier –> I as a leftie also hate it when people leave all there stuff on right hand side of bench forgetting 11% of the shooters sit there
9/26/2005 21:27:33– Leon Garfield –> Right sounds like a little communication between shooters and everything is good. Rifle must be removed….
9/26/2005 21:27:35– Jim Borden –> ***–right ON!!!!
9/26/2005 21:27:58– Dan Hackett –> This should not be an issue when multiple shooters share a bench, in my opinion. I always remove ALL my gear at the end of a match, and expect other shooters using the same bench to do likewise.
9/26/2005 21:28:11– Jim Borden –> me too Dan
9/26/2005 21:28:20– Leon Garfield –> And if they don’t do you ask them to???
9/26/2005 21:28:35– *** Grosbier –> that is your right Dan but agreements can be made if all parties agree
9/26/2005 21:28:43– Jim Borden –> I do–gets me some lip at times–but it is MY bench for that 10 Minutes
9/26/2005 21:28:52– *** Grosbier –> yes
9/26/2005 21:28:58– Dan Hackett –> I do, Leon. (And most people ask if it’s OK before the first match.)
9/26/2005 21:29:09– Leon Garfield –> Right, If you were to ask me I would move it no problem
9/26/2005 21:29:54– Jim Borden –> Guess we are winding down–any other questions before we close
9/26/2005 21:29:58– Leon Garfield –> Well Thanks I have to get up early Night all
9/26/2005 21:30:25– Bill Sargent –> thanks Jim
9/26/2005 21:30:28– Rod Franzius –> Night Leon
9/26/2005 21:30:30– David NMN Apple –> did any winners use moly this weekend?
9/26/2005 21:30:33– Dan Hackett –> Rotation after every match would completely eliminate any difficulties on this issue. ;-D
9/26/2005 21:30:50– Jim Borden –> all right Dan–I agree
9/26/2005 21:30:53– mike ricklefs –> Thanks jim. Night all
9/26/2005 21:31:33– Jim Borden –> Night all


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